Nicola Sturgeon moves Scotland a step closer to indyref2 with Independence Referendum Bill

a reply to: Freeborn

In fairness, if you lead a party called the Scottish Nationalist Party, then you can hardly not pander to nationalists can you? That's like trying to imagine, oh, let's think.... I know, the Labour leader being totally out of touch with the tradidional labour supporter base - crazy thought.

originally posted by: alienscot1
Scottish GDP looks healthy just now but I can't find a protracted one, can anyone help on that?

Check out this years Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures. This is public information so readily available.

a reply to: jrmcleod

thank you for a voice of logic and reason admist a stinky bog of rhetoric hogwash. I detest seeing this topic appearing on the boards on ATS because it is so important for Scotland and the rest of the UK, seeing it here saddens me, when it is usually just reduced to a rabble of insult flinging and cross border contempt, where the real issues get reduced to a form of political spin. The stakes are so much higher than mere politics.
I have never voted SNP, but they are the ONLY progressive party left in Scotland with a bit of clout....who are committed to the struggle against Westminister ( Tory ) rule. For this reason, I believe that they have as their main goal, my country's best interests. They are the only route to gain Independence.
Politics aside, the world is a mess. At a time when, collectively we should be campaigning for more Human Rights...the torys go in the opposite direction.
I pride myself on being Scottish, on all things Scottish and not in a "nastynat" kind of way...but with a civic sense of pride in the diversity within our little nation. So if the rest of the UK is really tired of "whinging Scots, and we are such a " financial drain " then let us go! Have a UK wide referendum and throw us out. Ah but no..better together ...isn't that what they said?

Just to add..born in Dundee, have lived in England for a time and also US. Amidst the cacophony of political discord ( brexit / us political circus ) and the horrific acts of war committed throughout the world, I am content to be back home in Scotland but would be even happier if my country disengaged itself from the Union. The Empire died long ago..its time for the Union to be dissolved.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: ScepticScot

Hi, no problem.

Daily Record

That is the first one i found (following reading) but there are actually plenty more out there, one from last week. That link is not the best as it actually shows no change whatsoever!

The Record is a lying Unionist rag. They ran plenty polls in their online editions that showed overwhelming support for independence pre oct 2014. (90%+ at times)... Funny they never published their own findings of those polls in the daily print version...
As i said. Unionist rag that has dropped it's overall readership by 100,000 per day in the last 5 years.

a reply to: djz3ro


If she wants to be in Europe she can pack her bags and move I'll help with that if she wants.

Don't want to be in Europe & I don't want the Euro or those CLOWNS over there making laws & rules that affect me.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Did you read it? The link is in the Record but it is an Ipsos-Mori poll. There are also lots of other links available to other polls - you just need to search for them.

Leave, don't leave, whatever. It is up to Scotland. At least be honest though. After the first Independence and then the Brexit referendums, i am sick to the back teeth of people lying to try and prove a point.

Debate the facts and then make a decision. No need for lies and distorting of the truth.

Has there been an upturn in Independence support since the Brexit vote? No.
Is Scotland doing well economically? No, it is tanking.
Could this change in future? Yes but not without serious investment or new inventions in the Oil & Gas industry.
Would an independent Scotland get this investment? Not until EU membership was activated, which at best would take an additonal 2 years and at worst up to a decade after independence.

All of the above are facts, verifiable through independent data.

As we are starting to see now, Brexit is already causing prices to inflate. If Scotland goes independent then given the above and added to the fact you would be losing the safety net of an additonal 60 million people, prices in Scotland would be even higher. This is simple, basic economics. If you wish to argue these points, show me the economic arguments that say i am wrong.

Basically, to all Scots Nats, please just be honest. No one wants to come across as deluded as the Brexiteer lot in Parliament!

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: Freeborn

In fairness, if you lead a party called the Scottish Nationalist Party, then you can hardly not pander to nationalists can you? That's like trying to imagine, oh, let's think.... I know, the Labour leader being totally out of touch with the tradidional labour supporter base - crazy thought.

Who are the 'Scottish Nationalist Party'? Can't say I have heard of them.

Your link shows a small increase in support for independence. You said that all polls showed an increase in support for the Union. Is there a poll that shows increased support for the Union?

a reply to: jrmcleod

Clearly not much! Yes it was a UK wide vote but what you FAIL drastically to realise is that Scottish Law and other devolved matters are intrinsically intertwined with the EU.

How is Scottish Law any more 'intertwined with the EU' than English or Northern Irish Law?

By forcing Scotland to leave the EU against the vote in Scotland means the UK government has to change Scottish Law which is against the Act of Union. It nullifys the act.

First of all, no-one is forcing Scotland.
Scotland voted to remain part of the UK.
The UK voted to come out of the EU.
Being part of The Union isn't selective.

Please show me exactly where and how, in accordance with Scottish Law, the Act of Union will be nullified if the UK comes out of the EU?

I live in North East England.
Unfortunately we can't cherry pick what pieces of legislation we want to accept.
Do you honestly think we have any more regard for those twats in Westminster than what you have?

Scotland was allowed to keep devolved issues such as Law and Eductaion etc 300 years ago.

Was allowed?
You do know that The Act of union was at the bequest of Scotland all those years ago, don't you.
Scotland kept what it wanted and did away with the rest.

EU law is part of Scottish Law.

Please exactly how so and how it is more or less so than say English or Northern Irish Law?

For Westminster to force change is in contravention of the Sewel convention.

Having read The Sewel Convention I'd say that's more of a matter for legal experts than you or I.
As with most things I guess its a matter of interpretation.
I'd also surmise that there would probably be a legal debate on the legality of a 'convention', although I'd definitely agree that it's morally binding.

This EU vote is more than just 4 nations as one, it about the democtraic will of those nations as laid down in a 300 year old political union.

And the democratic will of one of those constituent nations clearly showed in September 2014 that it wished to remain part of the UK.
It is the UK that will be exiting the EU, not the individual constituent nations.

The undoing of Scotland and England is not the SNP. Its the bloody Tories and the Better Together.

I personally believe that the people of these islands are by far better off together.

Whilst I recognise that the Tories are divisive, callous, profiteering and simply downright amoral I also question the motivations and tactics of the SNP and some of its supporters.

Party politics has outlived its fit for purpose.
Yes, urgent and radical reform of Westminster is necessary and I accept that there is a serial failing in efforts to address this in UK politics.

But Westminster's many failing's pale into significance when compared to the corruption and autocratic nature of the EU and its drive towards total political union and the elimination of the nation state.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: Freeborn

In fairness, if you lead a party called the Scottish Nationalist Party, then you can hardly not pander to nationalists can you? That's like trying to imagine, oh, let's think.... I know, the Labour leader being totally out of touch with the tradidional labour supporter base - crazy thought.

Who are the 'Scottish Nationalist Party'? Can't say I have heard of them.

What's an ist between friends? Anyway, as you are in Scotland you could say the same about Labour.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: Freeborn

In fairness, if you lead a party called the Scottish Nationalist Party, then you can hardly not pander to nationalists can you? That's like trying to imagine, oh, let's think.... I know, the Labour leader being totally out of touch with the tradidional labour supporter base - crazy thought.

Who are the 'Scottish Nationalist Party'? Can't say I have heard of them.

What's an ist between friends? Anyway, as you are in Scotland you could say the same about Labour.

Labour? Are they not some regional party for the North East of England?

Don't think we have them round these parts.

a reply to: djz3ro

It's funny because you seem to be trying to tar me with that brush and i'm not sure why.

Please read this and other related threads then I'm certain it'll be pretty obvious who its directed at.

a reply to: ScepticScot

There has been 30+ years of whining and moaning about our EU (and precursor) membership.

That's because what we bought wasn't what was delivered.
The British people voted to be part of a Free Trade Association - The Common Market - they were completely unaware of the agenda to force political union upon them.

All we wanted was the opportunity to exercise our Right to Self-Determination.
Something I'm sure you understand.

a reply to: alienscot1

It is time to just get on with life.

Amen Brother.

I am just tired of us going nowhere, the longer we take the less confident other countries are of us.

Ditto.

I was disgusted with the complete lack of leadership and direction from any of the political parties or interest groups in the weeks following the referendum.
And nothing that has happened since has instilled me with any confidence.

We need to grow a pair, put our differences aside and concentrate on the many things that unite us and move forward and try to turn this great Union of ours into something we can ALL be proud of.

But of course that requires, balls and leadership and above all putting the interests and well being of the British people, regardless of race, colour or creed, first and foremost and not those of corporate businesses or any select elite.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Who are the 'Scottish Nationalist Party'? Can't say I have heard of them.

Semantics.

Scottish National Party.

You know exactly what I meant - what point were you trying to make?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Who are the 'Scottish Nationalist Party'? Can't say I have heard of them.

Semantics.

Scottish National Party.

You know exactly what I meant - what point were you trying to make?

1_ my reply was to uncommitted, not you. Don't even think you did call them the Scottish Nationalist Party.

2_ the point Uncommitted was making was fairly dependent on the name. (And he responded with good grace and humour).

3_ If setting one self up as informed about a political party it is usually a good idea to get the name correct.

a reply to: ScepticScot

My mistake, apologies.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Your link shows a small increase in support for independence. You said that all polls showed an increase in support for the Union. Is there a poll that shows increased support for the Union?

You're right, my bad, what i meant to say (not sure why i didn't) is that there hasn't been an uptick in support for Independence post Brexit, rather than there has been an uptick for Remaining. In actual fact, most polls are showing a status quo since the referendum but some show marginal gains for Remain (not enough to make much difference either way).

In short, you were correct to call me on that as i was wrong in what i had written but at the same time correct in that Brexit hasn't caused a surge in support for the Independence movement.

Various Ipsos-Mori polls show this, as well as other (lets say less independent!) polls.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Who are the 'Scottish Nationalist Party'? Can't say I have heard of them.

Semantics.

Scottish National Party.

You know exactly what I meant - what point were you trying to make?

1_ my reply was to uncommitted, not you. Don't even think you did call them the Scottish Nationalist Party.

2_ the point Uncommitted was making was fairly dependent on the name. (And he responded with good grace and humour).

3_ If setting one self up as informed about a political party it is usually a good idea to get the name correct.

You are of course correct, I typed before thinking, thank you for your compliment. I would say though that if you vote for a party with the word 'National' in it, then arguably you are defining yourself as a Nationalist, so I do have to say the semantics were bad on my part, but the point I was making isn't too weakened by my mistake (I think).

Jimmy Cranky is blagging you again my Scots friends. A new referendum isn't Plan A, B, or even C, this is simply a negotiation tactic to get the best possible post Brexit deal for Scotland which I fully support. Ordinary Scottish people would take a massive hit if all the various Defence establishments were transferred back across the border, resulting in huge job losses in those industries and those associated with them. I would not like to see Scottish people suffer like that but I do believe that people should live in a country they themselves govern and if that is what the vast majority of Scots want "so be it" I say, regrettably.

I am not a big fan of referenda as they give politicians (spits) a cop out. After all if you are gonna throw the decision out to the populace every time something that really matters needs deciding, why not just have a popular vote on everything? In todays technical we could theoretically do away with scumbags altogether and just have a popular vote on everything.

a reply to: Flavian

I agree and suspect that in this case the polls are probably fairly accurate.

I think that it might sway a few folk but I suspect there are only a small number of voters who would put membership of the EU at the top of their list when considering either way.

My personal opinion is that about 48% support for Indy (a small increase since 2014 referendum) is probably pretty accurate at moment.

If things go totally tits up (or conversally very well) post brexit that may change things more significantly.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
Jimmy Cranky is blagging you again my Scots friends. A new referendum isn't Plan A, B, or even C, this is simply a negotiation tactic to get the best possible post Brexit deal for Scotland which I fully support. Ordinary Scottish people would take a massive hit if all the various Defence establishments were transferred back across the border, resulting in huge job losses in those industries and those associated with them. I would not like to see Scottish people suffer like that but I do believe that people should live in a country they themselves govern and if that is what the vast majority of Scots want "so be it" I say, regrettably.

I am not a big fan of referenda as they give politicians (spits) a cop out. After all if you are gonna throw the decision out to the populace every time something that really matters needs deciding, why not just have a popular vote on everything? In todays technical we could theoretically do away with scumbags altogether and just have a popular vote on everything.

It's Krankie not cranky. For the love of the wee man people, lets try and at least be accurate with our insults .....