DNA Dethroned - Inheritance is Protein-Based.

originally posted by: annoyedpharmacist
a reply to: SlapMonkey All proteins are made by transcription of DNA to RNA, and translation of that RNA into proteins. There are some post translational modifications to proteins through enzymatic processes, but that is how all protein is made

All proteins except inherited prions, which are NOT coded for or made by DNA. Prions are inherited epigenetically. Granted, if inherited prions spread in the body, the proteins they go on to infect will have been coded for and made by DNA.

...Or are you suggesting that DNA does code for prions annoyedpharmacist ?


This article might help you to understand the distinctions:

The self-templating conformations of yeast prion proteins act as epigenetic elements of inheritance. … Thus, prions broadly govern heritable traits in nature, in a manner that could profoundly expand adaptive opportunities.

The heritable variation that drives new forms and functions is generally ascribed to mutations in the genetic code. We previously proposed an entirely different pathway for creating heritable phenotypic diversity1, through which the inheritance of new traits can precede the genetic changes that ultimately hardwire them. The mechanism for this seemingly paradoxical flow of information resides in epigenetic switches encoded entirely by self-perpetuating changes in protein structure, known as prions.

a reply to: soficrow


OK. I can't wait for the first "prion cleansing" drug to hit the market.

I need to correct a few conditions.

a reply to: Aliensun

You're missing the point. Prions drive adaptation and evolution - before any genetic mutations might kick in. Best of all, the adaptations can remain "on call" for hundreds of millions of years without altering DNA. This means the current phenotype is adapted, but if the environmental pressure disappears, then so does the prion.

Yes, some prions cause disease, but that clearly has more to do with the environmental changes we have made through protein-based pharmaceuticals and chemical contaminations. Either way, the prion response is adaptive at the core.

originally posted by: ssenerawa
So why have studies and experiments using DNA been successful?

Name some, with links please. And be sure they make a clear distinction between gene products (proteins) and genes (DNA).

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: soficrow

So, basically, they're the free thinkers of the body and they're out to stage a coup on the man (DNA) as they see fit.

Got it.

NO! Not a coup at all. Prions are about adaptation, and surviving temporary environmental changes. Only if and when absolutely necessary (conditions become permanent) do genetic mutation and evolution occur.

It is a truly elegant system. Kind of an evolutionary DEW line.

I suppose that explains why human beings share 25% of there DNA with a Banana and MOST of us don't look a damned thing like a piece of fruit.

originally posted by: annoyedpharmacist
...If they can be passed on without the transcription translation pathway,

Yes, prions are passed on without the transcription translation pathway. That's one of the things this research shows.

The mechanism for this seemingly paradoxical flow of information resides in epigenetic switches encoded entirely by self-perpetuating changes in protein structure, known as prions.

and especially if they can "infect" other agents,

Err. Not in question. And never really was, scientifically. The evidence indicates the so-called controversy was manufactured as a ploy to deflect liability claims against Big Pharma.

Biochemistry. 2009 Mar 31. Prion diseases and their biochemical mechanisms.

…A growing number of observations support the once heretical hypothesis that transmission of TSE diseases does not require nucleic acids and that PrP(Sc) alone can act as an infectious agent. The view that misfolded proteins can be infectious is also supported by recent findings regarding prion phenomena in yeast and other fungi. One of the most intriguing facets of prions is their ability to form different strains, leading to distinct phenotypes of TSE diseases. Within the context of the "protein-only" model, prion strains are believed to be encoded in distinct conformations of misfolded prion protein aggregates. In this review, we describe recent advances in biochemical aspects of prion research, with a special focus on the mechanism of conversion of prion protein to the pathogenic form(s), the emerging structural knowledge of fungal and mammalian prions, and our rapidly growing understanding of the molecular basis of prion strains and their relation to barriers of interspecies transmissibility.

Mechanism of Cross-Species Prion Transmission: An Infectious Conformation Compatible withTwo Highly Divergent Yeast Prion Proteins

Efficiency of interspecies prion transmission decreases as the primary structures of the infectious proteins diverge. Yet, a single prion protein can misfold into multiple infectious conformations, and such differences in “strain conformation” also alter infection specificity. Here, we explored the relationship between prion strains and species barriers …

that would allow them to bypass the normal mechanism of replication

It's old news. Prions create a new "normal."

.......but then this foreign prion would and should be attacked by the immune system.

[sigh]

There is little or no immune response to prion diseases -- that's one of the hallmarks of prion diseases.

2005: Prions Use the Immune System to Spread in the Body

IF they every conclusively prove the prion TSE connection it is something we should be concerned about for sure

Where HAVE you been?!

Transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs), also known as prion diseases

Please NOTE:

This thread is about the role of prions in adaptation and evolution - and prions' beneficial attributes.

edit on 7/10/16 by soficrow because: add bold

edit on 7/10/16 by soficrow because: oops

originally posted by: lostbook

In summary: * Inherited traits are passed on by prions - with some dating back hundreds of millions of years. As well: * Conscious memories are 'stored' in prions; * Prions are airborne; and * Transmitted human-to-human.

Wow! Thanks for this. This could really change things in our understanding of humans and the world. ... Glad to see you back.

Thank you! And I sure hope it does. Spread the word!

originally posted by: AshFan
I want the Water bear Dsup protein prion please!

Me2! Gotta love those Tardigrades.

WATER BEAR PROTEIN ‘DSUP’ PROTECTS HUMAN DNA FROM RADIATION DAMAGE

And thanks for playing AshFan!

originally posted by: soficrow

originally posted by: ssenerawa
So why have studies and experiments using DNA been successful?

Name some, with links please. And be sure they make a clear distinction between gene products (proteins) and genes (DNA).

I mean, you just stated "time to re-write textbooks" and that "proteins are the product of DNA" thereby admitting to the fact that somewhere somehow studies or experiments involving DNA and/or RNA have been successful

a reply to: soficrow

DNA has not been "dethroned" nor has it been demonstrated that "inheritance is protein based." What has been known for more than just the last few years is that prion like proteins can encode information for later retrieval and that this information is heritable.

I wrote a thread a while back about how prion like proteins in flowering plants function as a sort of "memory" and it's a fascinating topic and there is much ground being broken but you're grossly mischaracterizing to the point that this is very woo-ish.

A quick and by no means comprehensive check with Google:

Current Biology - Cytoplasmic inheritance. Prion-like factors in yeast. (1994)
TheScientist - Protein-based Inheritance (2000)
Nature - Prions as adaptive conduits of memory and inheritance (2005)

In fact, the discovery of non-Mendelian inheritance goes back at least to 1908. You're trying to argue that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance somehow disproves DNA as a mechanism of inheritance and unfortunately for your premise, Medelian inheritance proves you woefully wrong.

HOWEVER.

What is useful that many people won't likely have learned in school is the growing understanding that genes are only a part of the over all picture, that there are multiple pathways by which patterns of information are inherited and that these work in synergy to produce the results we see.

originally posted by: ssenerawa

originally posted by: soficrow

originally posted by: ssenerawa
So why have studies and experiments using DNA been successful?

Name some, with links please. And be sure they make a clear distinction between gene products (proteins) and genes (DNA).

I mean, you just stated "time to re-write textbooks", thereby admitting to the fact that somewhere somehow studies or experiments involving DNA and/or RNA have been successful

Ah, no. The idea that 'genetics' followed Mendel's laws was always just an assumption. Nobody ever actually proved any such thing. Yes, that mistaken assumption was used to support Eugenics laws, and to justify sterilizing the poor, and jailing the feeble and so on. But despite all the money spent to find "the gene" for this and that, that mistaken assumption remains just that. An assumption, mistaken.

The flaw was clear to thinking minds the day the results came in from the Human Genome Project, showing we have only about 20,000 protein-coding genes. Oops. Go ahead, try and explain human variation with just 20,000 genes. But the Eugenicists weren't fazed. They just kept on lying, fudging, contorting... Even today.

Fact is, the science does show that inheritance is more protein-based than genetic. And the implications of protein-based inheritance, and ancient protein-encoded memory is what I'd most like to talk about.

a reply to: soficrow

Good grief.

It's been known since before the very first Punnett Square didn't accurately predict the results of breeding that Mendelian inheritance wasn't the whole of the story.

It seems to me that what you're really doing is trying to setup an argument for Jung's "racial memory." If that's where you're going with this, you're going to be greatly disappointed because there isn't enough storage capacity for information in these prion like proteins for that to be even remotely feasible.

a reply to: soficrow
Wrong! Please read the science.

Basically : DNA is the slow changing, long term species changes that "embed" the species traits. Short term RNA (epigenetic) changes can occur within a generation.

Evolution is a mix of the two but eventually the short term changes reflect in the DNA of a species. I will leave you to think how......(Darwin helps BTW).

a reply to: soficrow

That's a most interesting thread, Crow, thank you for sharing this awesome discovery! Finally something worth browsing ATS for!

A couple of question pops to my mind. I am not as familiar with prions as I would wish... Do they have the potential to modify bodily features or properties (such as colour vision, or hardness of nails, etc) years after the animal was born? Also, do they enable animals from a specie to gain expressions which are similar to another specie?

Awesome thread, S+F!

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: soficrow

DNA has not been "dethroned"

You got me! ...I stole that part of my title from the title in Stanford Medicine's Scope publication, and lost the question mark. The second part of my title is pulled from one of the cited texts. Mea Culpa.

I am not however, trying to argue "that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance somehow disproves DNA as a mechanism of inheritance." You're right, DNA obviously is a mechanism of inheritance. Emphasis on "a." And prions are another. With the added benefit that prion inheritance is not "fixed" and permanent. [Although it is on tap for hundreds of millions of years, and available when needed.]

You are also quite right in observing that "genes are only a part of the over all picture, that there are multiple pathways by which patterns of information are inherited and that these work in synergy to produce the results we see."

Two issues stand out as priorities for me:

1. I did not address this in the OP - but - Eugenics is an horrific movement, based on the mistaken assumption that all our traits are encoded in our DNA - and it never went away. Today, most people have bought into the campaign, hook line and sinker, and think most everything that's wrong with them is "genetic." I think it's critical that people understand that almost nothing is "genetically immutable" or "fixed in their DNA," and firmly believe the survival of the human species is at stake on this one.

2. As I stated at the end of my OP,

In summary:
* Inherited traits are passed on by prions - with some dating back hundreds of millions of years.

As well:
* Conscious memories are 'stored' in prions;
* Prions are airborne; and
* Transmitted human-to-human.

Does this information affect your understanding of life? Reincarnation and karma? What else?

This little collection of 'prion facts' opens HUGE doors for evaluating and understanding ancient and nature-based cultures, mysticism, and more. I find it fascinating and exciting.

nor has it been demonstrated that "inheritance is protein based."

But it has. Not ALL inheritance, but certainly some very key bits.

As protein-based elements of inheritance, prions perpetuate not by changing the way that genetic information is transcribed or translated but rather by co- opting the final step in the decoding of genetic information—protein folding.

Here, we examine the breadth of protein-based inheritance ...
...our data establish a common type of protein-based inheritance through which intrinsically disordered proteins can drive the emergence of new traits and adaptive opportunities.

This screen just gives us a taste of the breadth of prions and protein-based inheritance.

What has been known for more than just the last few years is that prion like proteins can encode information for later retrieval and that this information is heritable.

Yes. What's coming to light is the incredible breadth of prions and protein-based inheritance.

I wrote a thread a while back about how prion like proteins in flowering plants function as a sort of "memory" and it's a fascinating topic and there is much ground being broken

Yes! I'm familiar with that work, but please post your link. And feel free to check out my old thread, Prion-Like Protein Controls Long-term Memories.

Note that there is a distinction between long-term (conscious) memory and 'cellular' memory. Eg., Cellular memory of stressful situations.

but you're grossly mischaracterizing to the point that this is very woo-isa.

Please post quotes illustrating my "mischaracterizations." And what is "woo-isa?" You mean woo-ish? As in "woo-woo?" Like when Carl Sagan goes on about extrapolating from physics?

A quick and by no means comprehensive check with Google:

Current Biology - Cytoplasmic inheritance. Prion-like factors in yeast. (1994)
TheScientist - Protein-based Inheritance (2000)
Nature - Prions as adaptive conduits of memory and inheritance (2005)

I've been posting here on prions, and protein-based memory and inheritance for years. [Note the title in your second link: Protein-based Inheritance ] - and following Susan Lindquist's work. Decent references but as you say, not comprehensive. Also, I prefer Pubmed to Google for this sort of topic.


Thanks very much for your thoughtful post!

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: soficrow
It's been known since before the very first Punnett Square didn't accurately predict the results of breeding that Mendelian inheritance wasn't the whole of the story.

Don't take me out of context! I was responding to ssenerawa's focus on DNA.

It seems to me that what you're really doing is trying to setup an argument for Jung's "racial memory." If that's where you're going with this, you're going to be greatly disappointed because there isn't enough storage capacity for information in these prion like proteins for that to be even remotely feasible.

Please, please post your references showing the calculations for prions' storage capacities!

...As for where I'm "going with this" - I truly want to see what thoughts the info triggers in others' imaginations. But fyi - I would NEVER use the term " 'racial' memory " !!! However, I do sort of categorize Jung alongside the Sufis, Hindus, Taoists and the like, and give them all credit for doing the best they could with the resources available to them.

originally posted by: yorkshirelad
a reply to: soficrow
Wrong! Please read the science.

Backatcha mi'lad.

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: soficrow

So, identical twins don't get their similarities from their identical DNA, they just don't have the epigenetic variation most siblings have? Does that mean most identical twins don't have the same DNA?

Erm. Identical twins just have similar appearances - otherwise, they have proved to be very different (phenotypically). Importantly, environmental differences in exposures do NOT explain the epigenetic variations. There is a fair amount of research investigating epigenetic effects on twins. Here is a taste.

2005: Identical Twins Exhibit Differences in Gene Expression

Phenotypic differences in genetically identical organisms: the epigenetic perspective

Monozyg otic Twins Exhibit Numerous Epigenetic Differences

Human monozygotic twins and other genetically identical organisms are almost always strikingly similar in appearance, yet they are often discordant for important phenotypes including complex diseases. Such variation among organisms with virtually identical chromosomal DNA sequences has largely been attributed to the effects of environment. Environmental factors can have a strong effect on some phenotypes, but evidence from both animal and human experiments suggests that the impact of environment has been overstated and that our views on the causes of phenotypic differences in genetically identical organisms require revision. New theoretical and experimental opportunities arise if epigenetic factors are considered as part of the molecular control of phenotype. Epigenetic mechanisms may explain paradoxical findings in twin and inbred animal studies when phenotypic differences occur in the absence of observable environmental differences and also when environmental differences do not significantly increase the degree of phenotypic variation.

A twin approach to unraveling epigenetics

…Twin studies have played an essential role in estimating phenotypic heritability, and these now offer an opportunity to study epigenetic variation as a dynamic quantitative trait. …Recent genome-wide epigenetic studies in disease-discordant monozygotic twins emphasize the power of this design to successfully identify epigenetic changes associated with complex traits.
…..Epigenetics today more specifically defines cellular modifications that can be heritable, but appear unrelated to DNA sequence changes, and can be modified by environmental stimuli [2,3]. At present, epigenetic mechanisms typically comprise DNA methylation and histone modifications, but also include many other mechanisms such as ATP-based chromatin-remodeling complexes, Polycomb–Trithorax protein complexes, non-coding RNA mediated gene-silencing, and potentially prions, transcription-factor binding, and other mechanisms involved in generating and maintaining heritable chromatin structure and attachment to the nuclear matrix.

a reply to: soficrow

Is this something in tune with "racial memory"?