Let's Have a frank talk about America.

originally posted by: goou111
a reply to: Joneselius

If you want to be frank the real threat to world peace is Islam. Well religion in general. But mostly Islam.

Scratch that its Islam.

Nah.. The reality is that Islam simply isn't a "world power." Nor are any of the countries that are majority Muslim. Obviously Islamic militants represent a threat at a small level, at various times.

However, it is absolutely verifiable that the West currently, and over the last 100 years, has represented a far greater threat to the rest of the world than any other power. WWI, WWII, were mostly started by the West. Since the 50's, between the USSR and US, and now the West again, most of the major wars have been started by them. There are exceptions, but sorry it's pretty demonstrable.

The fact is most of the war-mongering countries have been Christian majority over the past 100 years, with the exception of the USSR (formerly Christian majority) and Japan.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


When any government resorts to torturing its enemy to get information, it means thugs are running things.It also means that such information gathered is what the thug wants to hear, which is what all the subsequent future actions will be based on.

The point is that America and the west might be lost. Lost in “freedom”

Freedom without guidance can lead to all kinds of bad things potentially.

And what do I mean by guidance?

I mean not to throw away the old wisdom but merely improve it…take a new look at it and try to integrate the old with the new without alienating either.

Integration is the key not separation and I don't mean racial integration

I mean the integration of philosophies and thinking. One can be secular and still be religious and one can be religious and still be secular

For example, integration of moderate religions. The advent of ISIS type jihadis is a human setback of untold proportions which I hope over the years can be rectified by wise moderate religious people from all faiths. Integration of political ideologies. Indeed not all socialists ideas or all capitalism...a wise combination of the best of both ideologies.

Integration of cultures. There's no reason why we need to abandon our different rich cultures and still at the same time can live together in peace and harmony. We don't need to integrate our bodies but integrate our hearts and minds.

This is the road to success

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


When any government resorts to torturing its enemy to get information, it means thugs are running things.It also means that such information gathered is what the thug wants to hear, which is what all the subsequent future actions will be based on.

Oh I agree. I abhor torture. George Bush and all of his posse should be on trial in the Hague for his war crimes of torture and for the unilateral, illegal invasion of Iraq.

i think you implied an important fact, that torture has been shown to not produce accurate confessions nor intelligence, making it useless.

a reply to: Willtell

That's the point I'm also making. The evil hasn't increased, it's simply being redirected. And if we look at raw numbers and percentages of populations, things are actually better now than before.

For example, estimates say 8 million people died in the Cerro Rico mines in Bolivia during the Spanish Colonial Era (HERE), nearly all being Native and African slaves. But no one even talks about that, the millions killed during the Belgian reign in the Congo, the hundreds of thousands of Roma/Romani killed in the Porajmos Holocaust, or the numerous Japanese massacres in their colonies before & during WW2. I'm only mentioning these to point out that mass genocides have been happening this entire time with no world power stepping in to help.

Just check out this rough list of the death tolls of the deadliest wars in recorded history. Then I think you'll understand my position a little clearer when I say that times are actually getting a lot better. And this is just our deadliest "wars".

List of wars by death toll

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Preach on!


a reply to: Majic

This is one reason people have to tell the complete histories instead of the watered down BS versions of events. Before the Civil Rights Movement, people in America used to send lynching post cards. They were postcards with the images of a specific lynching on them. And people can just do a google image search for that phrase or "America lynching" and they'll see that entire towns would get together to watch the lynchings. Some pictures even show the kids/teenagers posing with the charred and hung body. America has come a loooong way in terms of becoming more moral.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

At least we Krauts lead on the death toll like a Führer, Sieg Beil [hatchet]!

Nobody except intrptr compared the US with the Nazis, but now that the cold number-hunger-games are on I can see the Blockwart again. Thanks! Maybe that's part of the problem, just saying.

Now do me a favor, be a cop and harass a black guy! He may hold some dope, a gun, cash and a ride to requisition for the state. Ya know... your debt needs that cash! And I could use the smoking rests.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Preach on!

a reply to: Majic

This is one reason people have to tell the complete histories instead of the watered down BS versions of events. Before the Civil Rights Movement, people in America used to send lynching post cards. They were postcards with the images of a specific lynching on them. And people can just do a google image search for that phrase or "America lynching" and they'll see that entire towns would get together to watch the lynchings. Some pictures even show the kids/teenagers posing with the charred and hung body. America has come a loooong way in terms of becoming more moral.

Well, I don't want to say we have arrived. I DO think that many more people have been educated on racism, and the ignorance inherent in it. I DO think we have made much progress in religious and racial tolerance for example.

However, our war-like, oppressive policies continue abroad. I've been debating my roommate about this exact topic the last week. He is a fan of LBJ, for having been president while presiding over the passing of the Civil Rights Act. I introduced him to the concept of "net impact," which tries to weigh the total impact of a person, org, or policy, whether that "net impact" is good, neutral, or negative.

For example, during that period we passed the Civil Rights Act, but then also dropped more bombs on Southeast Asia than we dropped generally in WWII. Millions died. So there is still deep evil and immorality.

Going back to your previous post, however, I agree with you that people are historically illiterate when they imagine that somehow we are in some aggregate "moral decline." As you noted, people have been doing crazy sh%t for centuries. We decimated the Native Americans. The US virtually stole the Southwest and Texas from Mexico, etc. Slavery, Jim Crow.

This is why it is often said that conservatives look backwards in time to not real history, but a whitewashed mythological, almost religious, historical time, that never really existed.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Willtell

That's the point I'm also making. The evil hasn't increased, it's simply being redirected. And if we look at raw numbers and percentages of populations, things are actually better now than before.

For example, estimates say 8 million people died in the Cerro Rico mines in Bolivia during the Spanish Colonial Era (HERE), nearly all being Native and African slaves. But no one even talks about that, the millions killed during the Belgian reign in the Congo, the hundreds of thousands of Roma/Romani killed in the Porajmos Holocaust, or the numerous Japanese massacres in their colonies before & during WW2. I'm only mentioning these to point out that mass genocides have been happening this entire time with no world power stepping in to help.

Just check out this rough list of the death tolls of the deadliest wars in recorded history. Then I think you'll understand my position a little clearer when I say that times are actually getting a lot better. And this is just our deadliest "wars".

List of wars by death toll

Your point is understood and well taken but your missing a greater point.
You concede that it’s only a redirection of evil going on...fine.

Though some levels of evil are lessened in other areas they grow. Its like a seesaw…one side goes up the other goes down.

And here’s what I mean. Modern technology is riding on the backside of evil or more precisely, evil is riding on the backside of modern technology. Sort of the beast of the apocalypse scenario if you will. Of course the beast is us that internal combustion engine of evil that reproduces itself through conditioned responses.

So the point is where closer to cataclysmic events by our own hands because of that

And in that case numbers only matter in the end


Time

WIllTell

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree. I literally thank God that I was born in this time period. The leaps in technology, human rights, and access to information is literally on a level this country's never had before. My ridiculously optimistic goal is that we will "arrive" 50 to 80 years from now. But that will require people accepting things like pacifism, ending world hunger, universal human rights, the end of patents on medical cures and technologies, etc.

But as long as greed and violence are socially acceptable, that path will be impossible. And in that case, we'll go down in history as just another empire like the Romans or Mongols.

a reply to: Willtell

Oh, I'm not rejecting your overall point. I guess I'm just looking at the culmination of things like medical technology, access to information, environmental protections, and the reduction in overall warfare when compared to the past. We've come a long way since the times when we let 20,00-ish people die while building the Panama Canal, had to amputate limbs for relatively minor injuries, and women died from childbirth at high rates.

We obviously need to make sure our advances are shared throughout the world in order to truly call them "successes". But I think that's doable, especially through the rapid cultural transfers that are happening under globalization. We still suck when it comes to warfare and the outright hypocrisy of our attempts to be the world's moral police. But at least now citizens can choose not to participate in it.

And for probably the first time ever, most adult citizens in the "developed" world have the legal right to become a part of their political process in some capacity. From my perspective, that means the "masses" finally have the capability to change things if we actually want to change them. Of course, that also means the majority of people will have to admit that it's our own desires for war and oppression that allow our govts to continue those kinds of policies. After all, we're the ones who still vote these insiders back into power.

In short, I think I'm just looking at the overall totals of bad crap when compared to the past, as well as our new found capabilities to change them.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Uhh, I don't understand. I am a black guy and I don't have any "dope". No comment on the gun or cash part though.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree. I literally thank God that I was born in this time period. The leaps in technology, human rights, and access to information is literally on a level this country's never had before. My ridiculously optimistic goal is that we will "arrive" 50 to 80 years from now. But that will require people accepting things like pacifism, ending world hunger, universal human rights, the end of patents on medical cures and technologies, etc.

But as long as greed and violence are socially acceptable, that path will be impossible. And in that case, we'll go down in history as just another empire like the Romans or Mongols.

And this is why I've basically had two professional avocations: education for all and international sustainable development and justice.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

You know... the erosion of freedom since 9/11 and more patriot acts, the nickname of World's leading Jailer and all that. That's the poll you guys lead like a Führer, any uptick thanks to Nixons/ Reagans War on Drugs or something? Also, never heard of cops seizing cash? Fasten your seatbelts, it's worse...

ROUGHLY HALF OF the money raised to oppose a ballot measure to legalize recreational marijuana in California is coming from police and prison guard groups, terrified that they might lose the revenue streams to which they have become so deeply addicted.

Police and Prison Guard Groups Fight Marijuana Legalization in California

No corruption whatsoever, I know. Funny story though, the irony...

Counting victim numbers only is pretty short-sighted, the general state of affairs after the Cold War considered. Did I miss a few US invasions recently, which somehow helped to foster the great ideals of freedom and democracy? Ok, the negative advertisement part with regards to the Middle East is pretty blunt in your face. I appreciate that. It takes some balls to sell this ongoing erosion of everything the States once clearly stood for, as a victory.

originally posted by: MamaJ
a reply to: CJCrawley

Not voting doesn't do a thing. Already looked into it. www.zerohedge.com...

We would have to rally at the voting place and it would not be peaceful.. it would turn ugly in my opinion.

All right, carry on voting for the likes of Trump and Clinton then, how's that working out for the world? You don't have too many options, do you?

The fact is that the establishment would sit up and take notice if a significant chunk of the electorate didn't turn out to vote.

YES! let's.

Based on your thread title only.


I want ALL your retired (and future retired) vets (no matter their issues or history)
AND their families, (if they want)
to move to MY country.

I/we don't need protection.

I want them.

Singular or with their families, I don't care. Homeless or not.

The rest of your discussion is 'fluff'.

Have a nice night.


























NOT everyone HATES thefreedoms YOU fought for.

Many Americans hear say blame the government not them.


But how many voted for the chicken hawks in government?

How many would cheer the troops off to another pointless war?

How many would still turn up to to a draft if reintroduced?

How many serving members would obey a order that would trigger WW3 for no good reason?

Interesting conversation from the point of someone who lives in the UK. Most empires wax and wain, just like the British empire did. I think most historians agree that the American century is coming to an end. Like the UK was in 1945, the US is holding crippling debt and needs to find a way of extracting its self from its commitments.

However the situation is now different because in 1945 the successor to the British empire was seen as a friendly power which enabled us to have a managed decline. The successor to the US is likely to be China, Russia or a combination of the two.

Its a bit like being stuck between a rock and a hard place, go quietly into night, and let the bad guys take over. Or keep fighting and let them watch you thrash about, smash the house up and hemorrhage internally, then take over.

Its a tough choice, and one that involves a certain amount of eating humble pie for the longer term benefits. Many in the UK still struggle with indigestion from that pie, I suspect our American cousins will feel that burn just as keenly.

originally posted by: CJCrawley

originally posted by: MamaJ
a reply to: CJCrawley

Not voting doesn't do a thing. Already looked into it. www.zerohedge.com...

We would have to rally at the voting place and it would not be peaceful.. it would turn ugly in my opinion.

All right, carry on voting for the likes of Trump and Clinton then, how's that working out for the world? You don't have too many options, do you?

The fact is that the establishment would sit up and take notice if a significant chunk of the electorate didn't turn out to vote.

I don't think you understand my position.

I'm not voting!!!

With me not voting though.. well... if no one voted... it still wouldn't change the outcome. Whoever is supposed to be in the seat has already been groomed for it and the decision is already made.

Apologies for the late reply.

originally posted by: MamaJ
a reply to: AceWombat04


Can we agree on the list below?

Voting is useless

I would say, whatever functional system we hope to return to must include an ability to vote that not only feels like it matters, so that we all feel we have a stake in the outcome, but also one which includes representatives that make more of the electorate feel like they can in good conscience vote, and can care about doing so, than not.

Right now, voter turnout is so low, and the offerings so much more unpopular than favorable, that I agree - voting is useless in the sense that the majority neither participates, nor feels represented by the options available. (Even the third party candidates in many cases, as is the case for me.) Voting has to matter again, and feel like something we can care about rather than a meaningless chore than we have zero stake in.

Our government is too big and corrupt

This I definitely agree with. That said, I'm never going to be someone who believes we should cut (reduce in size and cost, yes) social welfare programs. Which is why despite my inability to support either major party and my holding of views both the "left" and the "right" lay claim to, I can't support the libertarian party at the moment. I also believe some regulation is necessary in a non-perfect world. That's just me, though.

We are in the Middle East for resources

Of course. Which in and of itself wouldn't be an intrinsically bad thing - all nations need resources - but we definitely need to move towards greater energy independence, and find a means of securing resource agreements with states in the region that do not result in bloody wars like we've been embroiled in there practically since we got there. (We meaning the west in general.)

We are policing our corporation and outside entities for money/resources

Definitely.

Our prisons and schools are a business

Definitely. And prisons should not be for profit entities imho.

Our healthcare is a mess

Yes. And drug prices are way too high.

Our debt will keep coming as long as we keep printing ( the FED has to go bye, bye)

Yes and no. I am not an economist, and on top of that I have dyscalculia... so my ability to assert anything with authority when it comes to this is nil. I do think, intuitively, we absolutely must reduce our debt. And that the federal reserve should be to some extent curtailed and limited. On the other hand, it does seem to serve - at least historically - a critical stabilizing role, and while certainly capable and imo guilty of economic manipulation, I'm also less ardent in my belief in conspiracy theories relating to the fed than many here are. They definitely have power and imo have at times abused it, but I also don't see it as the wholly evil entity bent on global financial domination many theorists do. So as with government size and social programs, I would say, limits and reductions (and DEFINITELY more oversight,) but not elimination.

At least, not right away, and if ever, only gradually.

If we agree on the above list what do we do about it?

That's the ultimate question, isn't it? I strive to give honest answers so I will say, I honestly don't know. I think the solution is going to have to happen on an individual and then community basis, first with a commitment to greater civility so that we don't contribute to the forces being wielded and exploited on an social level for political ends, and then by producing from among ourselves candidates that feel as they are supposed to: of the people, by the people, and for the people. Right now the sense of disfranchisement and disconnection between ourselves and any candidate, is so great as to be almost a total breaking of the central premise of our republic imho.

How we can do that? If it's even truly possible anymore? I don't know. My greatest fear as it pertains to all of this, is that even with no mandate, even with no majority, even with more than half the electorate not participating - not out of apathy, but disgust and disenfranchisement - they will simply continue to play the game they always have.

The only legal and peaceful action we can take to change the system is to take our self out of the system. Many ways to do this without even walking outside our door. A "strike" so to speak. How long would we as a collective have to stay home before it was felt in the Government?

I'd like to think something like that could work. But I'm conflicted by a nagging thought that I can't escape whenever I consider it.

We don't like to admit it... but our politicians are us. They may be a dark, corrupt, horrible aspect of us... but they are us. As George Carlin put it once, "Where do people think these politicians come from? ... They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens."

So suppose we all stay home (which I already essentially am, as I'm effectively disabled.) We like to imagine we are distinct from them... and that by staying home or going on strike we are sending "them" a message... which might well be the case... but until we recognize that the government is us, and that we have to replace what we lament with some other, better aspect of ourselves, I feel like all going on strike will do is further destabilize the house of cards, without providing anything to take its place once it collapses.

It's sort of like when people say it would be great if we all took our money out of the banks and caused them to completely collapse. It's great in theory and principle, but in reality it would cause a massive financial crisis that would have enormously detrimental effects on real people's lives throughout the country, and the world.

The truth is... I don't know what the solution is. I don't have any good answers. At all, if I'm honest. But I think if we are to avoid the fate we all in the back of our minds fear we're headed towards in due time, it's going to require society itself - us - finding better ways to communicate, cooperate, and legislate. I don't think any candidate is going to come along and fix all of this, or that opting out entirely, even en mass, is going to force them to fix it. We need representatives we can actually believe in and who will substantively do things differently... and right now, society either doesn't produce those people, or doesn't allow them to rise to office. Right now the solutions to the status quo may be even worse imo. We need to start producing better alternatives, rather than worse, from among ourselves.

Where I disagree with Carlin is where he concluded from the above: "The public sucks. ____ hope." I believe there's still hope, and indeed, that there is always hope. But both we and our leaders are going to have to change who we are... personally, internally, individually. The question is whether we can do so in time.

I urge you wall to think about a peaceful and legal solution. We can't keep beating a dead horse.

I concur. I wish I had better solutions.

Peace.