Let's Have a frank talk about America.

I'm an American and over the last fifteen years I've seen immense degradation of the morals of the American people. It is sickening how disgustingly corrupt the people of this nation have become. It's not going to get better. There is a sickness in the heart of the people of this nation and no President Trump, or Clinton or anyone else is going to fix it.

This is a serious warning to those God fearing, bible believing Christians to repent and come back into the arms of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our nation's sins have piled up to heaven and judgment is coming.

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. -Revelation 18

a reply to: TrueBrit

When someone starts off with insults, they are not in for a real conversation. So therefore, why should I entertain the subject further?

Talk like an adult, not school children.

The greatest destroyer of ecology the greatest source of waste, depletion and pollution the greatest purveyor of violence- war - crime - poverty - animal abuse and inhumanity the greatest generator of social and personal neurosis mental disorders - depression, anxiety not to mention, the greatest source of social paralysis stopping us from moving into new methodologies for personal health, global sustainability and progress on this planet is not some corrupt government or legislation not some rogue corporation or banking cartel not some flaw of human nature and not some secret hidden cabal that controls the world. It is, in fact: The Socio-Economic System itself at its very foundation.

a reply to: Cyruay

Could it not be said that our socio-economic system is itself the result of human nature?

TheRedneck

a reply to: poncho1982

So you disagree then? You disagree that the majority of the public are completely ignorant to political processes? Have you ever engaged in political discussion in public? Like, ever? I have......

I'm not insulting Americans. I'm telling a truth, a truth you simply can't handle. As I have stated earlier, spare me the faux outrage. You've probably called countless people idiots before and not felt a flick of indignation, but here....... Give it a rest.... The American population (as I said, like A LOT of populations) is thick, this isn't an insult, it's the truth. They ARE also lazy and apathetic. How did you end up with Trump and Hillary? How have you ended up illegally occupying ANOTHER country?

Your outrage blinds you.

a reply to: thehumbleone

To a large extent I agree with you. I would hope, as a Christian, that the people would come before the LORD and repent, it was hard to keep my OP secular as I did.

The nations moral decline can be seen around the entire world. It's the same in Britain too - the supposedly 'honest and loyal' working people look for way to cheat the system for their own gain, like the people claiming Job Seekers in the UK who already have jobs.

Almost every nook in our neighborhood is now filled, to the brim, with violent youths - disrespectful to even the police and their parents; they are given immunity by the people who should be penalizing them. They have no fear in them at all. None. They 'front' me all the time and I'm a big guy, we're talking like 11 year old kids here, 'squaring up to' a fully grown man. You can't reason with them either, even the 19 - 25 year olds are above reason. They know only what they've been shown by our corruption, violence and lies.

I have been pondering a thought for the last few weeks, especially the last few days, that maybe America is now the single greatest threat to world peace that has ever existed.

Anyone who thinks this hasn't been paying attention to Russia,China,North Korea,radical islam or really read world history.

And there's no such thing as a 'democratically' elected government in any place around the world. Especially Syria/middle east, and Russia.

They are a FARCE.

Except maybe Britain, and Canada.

a reply to: thehumbleone

When exactly was human morality at it's peak exactly? I'm just curious, don't remember the dark or middle ages being that great in terms of morals... what was the religious beliefs held by pretty much everyone of the day? Oh right Christian.

Get off your high horse and come back down to the real world.

People are benevolent or malevolent based on their character as a person, and is completely separate from and unrelated to their beliefs for or against Jesus or and any of the Abrahamic Religions.

a reply to: Majic

Kinda Majic

I completely agree with your statements, that's not the point. Inspiring stuff, just saying.
Also, I like the subtile light your headlines above shine on the textblock below. Which might prove to be helpful in avoiding misinterpretations, as my language sometimes lacks precision. Take my adaptation of your method as another compliment, 'cause that's precisely what it is.

and (both thumbs)

Peace by Freedom

With that being said, Newspeak's "War is Peace" slogan is just the strawman to cement your point with. Nothing more. Orwellian dialectics had to be mentioned at some point, why not in the beginning to sort things out? And sadly, in times of a Total War on Everything we're pretty close to that nightmare. War on terror, war on drugs, war on corruption, war on whatever, etc. pp.

When I'm thinking about treaties like the Peace of Westphalia, the social contract comes to mind as well. And with regards to all the disenfranchisement, disappointment and lack of perspective in this industrialised and civilised world, it should be abundantly clear that growing inequity on multiple accounts endanger the whole fabric our society is hold together with.
Or as someone else someday said: "this varnish of civilisation is a very thin layer", which puts your great Great Apes statement in the social context. That peace is a fragile one and every crime statistic is a testament of it's ongoing erosion.

I am not optimistic that the ideal of genuine and lasting world peace can be attained by humans.

You realize the parallel to your other post regarding the ideal of freedom? Here's the thing:

I am at peace
when I enjoy my freedom
I am free from fear
when I'm at peace with god/ the universe and all that.

Probably the worst utterly pathetic poem I ever wrote, but that's not the point. This exercise is just supposed to get the point across, that the different meanings of both words may stem from the same source. Or their emotional content, to be more precise. At least that's the thought of train I have issues to wrap my head around right now, but it's right there between the lines.
Peace by freedom and freedom by peace, that nasty little headline actually works both ways at well. Which isn't very surprising, I better stop now before my head explodes...

but we are still apes

That's your choice. I'm the son of apes and gods, probably directly ascended from the stars.



Regardless of that endless discussion, let's focus on the social structure of our cousins in the woods for a brief moment. The really mad violence of chimps for example is usually something reserved for outsiders and their wild hunt, iinit? Which is why there's still hope for us less hairy apes. As long as we're ready to see the human species as one tribe hunting together on this blue marble, we may also be able to keep our mad and violent instincs in check, as far as possible. Not in sameness, but in equality.

as long as we deny who we really are, we will never be who we can really be.

Indeed. In other words: are we what we think we are, does this society -with all it's current values and restrictions- really represent the human nature? I'd say not at all, which is probably the reason why this old interview with Fromm is still right on the money 50 years later.
His analysis offers solutions to the question why our society is inherently violent. And I'd doubt that human nature alone is to blaim here, but rather the process of objectification in dealing with other living beings. The reduction of their soul if you will, to a simple thing which has to be manipulated properly to make ends meet.
There we have the psychological aspect, which facilitates the application of violence against another fellow human being in the first place. Thus I'd say this society is inherently violent and oppressive by design. We lack the freedom to be who we really are. But to gain that freedom, we, as society, need to break the chains of materialistic consumerism holding us back. Which makes this task even more herculean...

It's just half an hour long, listen for yourself if you like:

a reply to: Joneselius

On the contrary, I am not even close to outrage. Although, you'd like me to be, I'm sure.

I honestly could not care less about your opinion of us. Makes no difference to me whatsoever. The sun will still come up in the east in the morning, and I'll still have to go to work.

Doesn't change the fact that you started off with an insult, then expect us to fall in line with whatever you say afterwards.

LOL, it's funny really.

It’s the secular paradigm that is under attack here obviously. And it’s a reasonable proposition that the western world is in moral and spiritual decline particularly the American experiment.


That’s been something many people have said for a long time.

We forget that while people say constantly that America is “the greatest country that has ever existed” and claim all kinds of particular virtue of America, the other side of that yin of course is the yang of the cultural demise of spirit and morality that has spread across the American landscape.

Also, always remember the great and wonderful America has been the country, however justified many believe, in creating the weapon of mass destruction that can literally wipe out the human specious from the lexicon of life itself!


We do seem to forget that

Perhaps we need a new morality. A morality that deals with the modern paradigm of secular and scientific values that most believe has transcended the old religious values we inherited.


Indeed many have thrown the religious baby out with the moral bathwater so our basic ethic and morality may need a tweaking by ideas that update the moral paradigm.


Humans, if they are to rise above the common beast, need a moral compose to live by…It Doesn’t have to have anything to do with God or religion per se( though religion should be included) but can be based on an empirical vision that accepts a scientific, social (and still religious ethic to many) need for a moral and ethical standard human beings should be obligated to stand by.


It seems the morality that goes along with the religious paradigm has faded within the spirit of the human heart. Indeed maybe to such a degree that a vacuum has created a void in our spirit that needs to be filled. As of now that emptiness is filled by a crass materialism and selfishness and over reliance on science to the detriment of the spirit of man.

This can spell our doom or can become a great opportunity for transformation into a higher ethic and consciousness.

Which do we choose?

a reply to: Willtell

How is America in a moral or spiritual decline? This country was literally founded by enslaving people, mass genocide, and mass ethnic cleansing. Literally. Our immoral and spiritual failings in the 1800s were just as bad as they are right now; they were simply directed at different people. ETA: We even forced the Kingdom of Hawai'i to become a State through threats and captured many of the Southwestern States through military conquest against Mexico.

How many Americans even know about the American massacres against Natives in California or the bounty programs we had for the scalps of Natives? Or how the Georgia Gold Rush (and other gold rushes) helped fuel the ethnic cleansing of the Natives in the Southeast US?

America's way more moral than it was even 100 years ago. Citizens can now legally marry any gender or ethnicity they want, instead of facing felony charges for people who violated interracial marriage laws in the States that banned them (and facing anti-sodomy laws for homosexual relationships). And if citizens don't want to be a part of our war machine, we can choose not to join the military (as opposed to being forced in through the draft). Even our overseas wars now pale in comparison to the murder rates in the 2 World Wars and the 2nd Indochina War/Vietnam War.

We're clearly not perfect but the improvements have been staggering.

Sins Of The Fathers

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
How is America in a moral or spiritual decline? This country was literally founded by enslaving people, mass genocide, and mass ethnic cleansing.

But those things are all fine, because God says they're all fine. In fact, those are all things God commanded His chosen people to do, so it would probably be a sin not to go forth and do likewise.

It's all right there in the Good Book, and with the Word of God to guide them, thus did the righteous do His will, clear of conscience and with a song in their hearts.

Of course, modern Christians would no doubt take umbrage at such notions, but modern Christians are very, very different from the Christians of 18th and 19th Century America.

Well, mostly.

But indeed, the myth of a virtuous past is one of America's greatest legacies. Without it, we might be obliged to take a long, hard and unpleasant look at what really happened in those storied, golden days of old.

God forbid.

I would agree with most of everything you said, but I think a historical error is that this only started recently. The move of the US towards empire and attaining geo-political hegemony has been going on at least since WWII at a minimum, if not all the way back to the beginning of the 20th century. Some would argue it goes back to the founding of our nation, not to mention the era of conquest and colonialism prior to that.

As far back as the 50's the US was authoring regime changes in places such as Guatemala and Iran, overthrowing democracies and installing friendly dictatorships.

williamblum.org...

The history of Latin America from then until the 90's was a history of the US and CIA intervening in Latin America, using any means necessary to protect American corporate interests. We supported a series of dictators in El Salvador, Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, Panama, etc, who would support our hegemonic interests. During the Guatemalan Civil War which erupted after we helped overthrow Jacabo Arbenz in 1954, the US helped train death squads that aided the government in wiping out several hundred thousand indigenous Mayan people, what is now considered a virtual genocide.

www.coldwar.org...

A similar situation occurred in El Salvador, with our special forces and CIA aiding a despot there in tyrannizing the population.

I was just educating my roommate about how during Vietnam the US dropped more bombs on Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam than the US dropped in all of WWII. Countless people died during this conflict. Laos and Cambodia weren't even involved in the conflict, although obviously some Viet Cong were operating there. Still, countless civilians died. Over a million.

www.washingtonpost.com...

My point being is, the rabbit hole goes deep into history. I think we've been lied to deeply about the nature of our government and foreign policy.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Sure there’s been improvements on the side of how people treat other tribes thanks to secular humanistic principles.


But even there in the last century there’s been how many genocides where humanity sat by and watched and did nothing.


How many wars of massive destruction


How many atomic and hydrogen bombs have been erected. Still countries waste money on massive armies and WMD’s


How many people are starving yet we do nothing


As for America its still trying to secretly control a great part of the world


Not really laying the groundwork for world peace as they surreptitiously try to destroy Syria


The evil hasn’t gone away its just transformed

originally posted by: JinMI
Flagged for later viewing.

I agree with the premise and have been thinking the same thoughts as of late.

When does one come to the realization that their nation is the enemy of the world?

Although I agree with the whole post basically, it is important to realize that the US isn't fundamentally different from other power-hungry empires throughout history, such as the British or Romans.

That doesn't excuse it. I'm an international moralist, who doesn't believe that might makes right nor that superpowers can violate the sovereignty of other countries or violate international law at will.

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Joneselius

Good luck convincing the american members that their country's government has been a global threat since the end of the cold war...

You got some balls dude that's all I got to say.

Eh... A lot of americans have been saying this for decades. It's not really a new perspective, but it's an important one. Contrary to popular lore, a lot of Americans are totally aware of this. We're not all as uneducated as some stereotype us as.

I don't think that is accurate. During the Bush era is when global opinion turned against the US, due to the Iraq War and Afghanistan War, not to mention torture. This has been discussed ad nauseum, long before Obama became president.. In fact, Obama did a lot to bring back some public opinion, but then squandered it by authoring with Clinton the continuing proxy wars in Libya and now Syria.

But it is absolutely inaccurate that this started with Obama. This goes back decades.

I don't need to be governed. Why does any of you feel the need to be governed? It's obvious we don't want to be a part of the mass genocide and we just want a peaceful life so how do we plan on making this happen? Ask me how... I will tell you how to begin. I was just told myself and it seems like the right thing to do is to spread the word like a jehovah's witness. lol