Ok We get it you can stand for the anthem now

it never ceases to amaze me that these threads routinley deny the freedomNOT to stand for the anthem

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
it never ceases to amaze me that these threads routinley deny the freedomNOT to stand for the anthem

Cuz people died for our freedom to protest. So we better not protest and sully their memory.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

you owe me an irony meter

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Grambler

The disparity in arrests? To me it suggests that Blacks could be heavily targeted by police, rather than implying that "they" are simply more prone to murder for some reason. What logic is there in that? The data about the disparity of incarcerated African Americans similarly suggests a justice system out of balance. Couldn't it be for the same reason, that being that the average Black person doesn't have the legal resources to defend themselves on par with the average White person because of socio-economic differences rather than racial ones?

Before I begin, this Harvard study seems to take everything into account and still shows unarmed whites are more likely to be shot by police.

Ok there is no definitive way to resolve this argument, but I will do my best.

There can never be stats that will show beyond a shadow of a doubt how many murderers are white and how many are black unless some deity or alien can come down with proof.

What we do know are pretty corrects is the population size. I will estimate, but about 196 million whites and 37 million blacks, that we can agree on. Basically there are 5 times more whites than blacks.

Now when we look at the arrests for murder, we see whites 3799, and blacks 4379 (this was in 2013 the most recent I could find). This means that blacks are 6x more likely to be arrested for murder than whites.

Do you really think that police are so disparaging towards black people that they arrest 6x more blacks than they should, or 6x less whites than they should? That seems really extreme.

Now notice that this is not convicted, it is arrested, so things like being able to get a good lawyer shouldn't matter.

But here is what I find to be the best evidence. I think we can both agree that n=most people attack people of their own race. According to data compiled from the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report (UCR) and the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey, in 2012 50.6 percent of all homicide victims were black. That is tragic.

victimsofcrime.org...

Forget about perpetrators for a moment, just look at the victims. 12% of our population makes up more than 50% of murder victims. So if most people are killed by folks in their own race, we can say it would be fair blacks probably commit around 50% of the murders.

This basically fits in with the arrest numbers.

And me and you both know that the vast majority of these deaths occur in certain neighborhoods such as inner city gang areas. So when police go into these areas, they are more likely to have highly intense confrontations with these people.

Take race out of the situation for the moment. I live in rural PA with people of many ethnicitys. The amount of unarmed people shot by police in rural areas is probably extremely low. The again, the amount of police encounters with people in rural areas is also very low. The opposite is true in inner cities, people shot by cops up, but so are all interactions with the police.

So it makes sense to me that because Police deal with more violent situations in these black communities, there will be more incidents when the police act egregiously.

a reply to: Grambler

Okay, if it's NOT an intentional (or institutional) bias on the part of law enforcement, what's left?

Do you think that there is something intrinsic about "being Black" (i.e. of recent or distant African heritage) that make these folks more likely to murder???

If so, what is that?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Grambler

Okay, if it's NOT an intentional (or institutional) bias on the part of law enforcement, what's left?

Do you think that there is something intrinsic about "being Black" (i.e. of recent or distant African heritage) that make these folks more likely to murder???

If so, what is that?

No not at all. I don't think it is biological. I think there are many factors.

Poverty, living in highly populated areas, having few two parent houses, having a culture that glorifies bad behavior, the war on drugs, no job opportunities, having the victim mindset crammed down their throats, and probably many more.

Let me tell you something about me. I am 32, white, grew up with a great family in a rural neighborhood, and now make around $30,000 a year and live in the same town I grew up in. I love my life, and think I am doing pretty good.

But if I was born in a poor inner city neighborhood in a single parent household, I am 95% sure I wouldn't have made it. I would have fell into drugs and violence no doubt in my mind. I am lucky, and I acknowledge that. In no way do I think that the blacks bron in these inner city are somehow genetically worse than me, I basically just got luckier than them.

I think the people that work hard to achieve greatness despite harsh upbringings are among the greatest people in the world.

I harbor no ill will to blacks. I want them to succeed as well as all groups.

But I am not going to ignore facts, and the facts suggest blacks, particularly young black men in these tough inner cities, commit a far disproportional amount of violent crime. And the biggest victims of this violence are other blacks. We can discuss the reasons, but I think the numbers back it up.

This increased violence leads to more conflicts with the police.

I am tired of the racial divisiveness, and I think this narrative of cops hunting down and killing unarmed blacks disproportionately is being intentionally spread by the media to create a larger division. That is why I am against this.

One last thing, when Kaepernick or others protest and say the want to start a cnversation, the conversations like me and you and others on this thread are what we need to have. One where we look at facts, and try to come up with honest solutions. Not one where we start off with feelings under the assumption that this country oppresses black people.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Grambler

Okay, if it's NOT an intentional (or institutional) bias on the part of law enforcement, what's left?

Do you think that there is something intrinsic about "being Black" (i.e. of recent or distant African heritage) that make these folks more likely to murder???

If so, what is that?

Its socioeconomics. The fact that we are using "black" as a synonym for the "poor people" is fairly telling in and of itself.

Is racism institutionalized in this country? You bet your ass it is. But lets not also forget that you have a brick tied to your ankles when you enter the swim meet as a southern white person. All that demonizing during and after the civil war still sits in our gut like an undigested hamburger.

The real kicker, though....it becomes genetic after awhile. Some examples of what I mean:

- only about 40% of brain cells in any human have the same DNA expressed in the rest of the body. The rest....its different in myriad ways. There are proteins that specialize in deleting/inserting DNA into neurons, meaning that 2 neurons sitting side by side may behave in slightly different ways. What causes this? Well...its natural. But its also predicated on environment. Just like....

- epigenetics are proven to create real change in the DNA of people as well as real changes in behavior in people. What causes the insertion of epigenetic markers? It seems that, once again, its a response to environment.

- the environment you live in has been proven to have effects on the brain. When measuring people in Denmark vs people in China, there are marked differences in the portions of the brains that help develop a sense of self. In Denmark you can see the brain function express in wholly different ways than you see in Chinese people, which seems to relate to a response to the environment (once again). In China there is a blurring of sense of self with sense of other, owing to the collective nature of the culture they live within (assuming correlation/causation flows in an intuitive direction).

So what is becoming more and more apparent to me is that people who live in squalor have no choice but to give birth to more people who live in squalor. Sure, there are one off examples of people "making it out". But on the whole, the trend seems pretty clear.

So no, its not really about race. But it is, thanks to our baggage. What rubs people the wrong way is the ignoring of the people who are not black living in squalor in places like Kentucky that get no attention. As if their plight doesn't matter quite as much.

ETA: not sure its worth pointing out here....but the obvious implication here is that we, as a species, control our own destiny. By providing the environment needed, we can make us all stronger. We don't do this, mostly because humans are assholes. But if we did, we could begin creating the future for ourselves rather than riding a raft down this river.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Wow. Now I remember why I love your posts!

Amazing summary, great information and educational discussion!

Yes, I would say that the real issue to look at in certain types of crime is socio-economics.

And I would say that a general solution to the crisis we face in this country (here comes a surprise for some folks) is to totally reorient how we fight poverty.

What we are doing is not working. It is perpetuating the problems, even institutionalizing them.

And at this point, it's really, really not a right/left or Democrat/Republican or liberal/conservative issue.

We need to reorient education and all forms of assistance (except of course for things like healthcare, disability aid, etc.) toward working together to empower EVERYONE and not just mouthing the words.

We made some proactive changes in the mid 90s; we need to make more.

Helping someone become a PRODUCTIVE member of society should be our only goal in assisting OR educating them.

a reply to: Gryphon66

If we would, as a civilization, recognize that it all starts with cognition and cognitive faculties.

i read an interesting article about being poor. Been there, done that....and reading through the article reminded me why I've spent my life unlearning bad habits: because being poor puts you in a position where you either don't see how bad a decision is, or don't see the use in making a 'good decision" because in the end, it doesn't change your position.

www.theguardian.com...

I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don’t pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It’s not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn’t that I blow five bucks at Wendy’s. It’s that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ever will be. It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase. I will never have large pleasures to hold on to.

There’s a certain pull to live what bits of life you can while there’s money in your pocket, because no matter how responsible you are you will be broke in three days anyway. When you never have enough money it ceases to have meaning. I imagine having a lot of it is the same thing.

The hopelessness expressed in the above excerpt hurts my soul. I've been there, and can relate. For me it was a mix of luck of smarts. Some people have neither.

Anyway, the linked story is really good. I suspect you will find resonance as well.

a reply to: Grambler

This country does oppress based on Race, Gender-Identity, Sexual-Orientation. we and many people have thought up Solutions and no-one really seems to hear or care.

If we are just talking about Race, there is Economic Racism, Environmental Racism, Social Racism. we are talking about this Phony "War On Drugs" Gentrification, Lack of Public and Community Funding, Education Lack of Social Programs, Activities, and The Arts.

This is all part of the "Conversation"

originally posted by: YenSid
a reply to: Grambler

This country does oppress based on Race, Gender-Identity, Sexual-Orientation. we and many people have thought up Solutions and no-one really seems to hear or care.

If we are just talking about Race, there is Economic Racism, Environmental Racism, Social Racism. we are talking about this Phony "War On Drugs" Gentrification, Lack of Public and Community Funding, Education Lack of Social Programs, Activities, and The Arts.

This is all part of the "Conversation"

Ridiculous, the all of the things you mention are not policies that are government enforces to be racist. They may affect one race more than another, but they are not racist policies. There may be individual racist people, but to claim the country is oppression people based on race is a stretch.

So lets take the war on drugs. The chief law enforcement officer in the United States is Lorretta Lynch, and was Eric Holder before then. So you are claiming they are racist? And their boss is Obama, also a racist, right?

So I am sure you have been shouting to get these racists out of office, right? I mean, I will say I think these people pushing of a victim mindset onto the black community is belittling to the black community, and racist, but I am sure that is not what you mean.

What do you mean there is economic racism, and what would your solution to it be?

Also, I linked a study here showing unarmed whites are more likely to be shot by police, so what solutions to you have to stop the racist cops from discriminating and killing whites?

a reply to: Grambler

Demilitarizing the Police, Full-Time Independent Investigators for All Police Murders, Community Review Boards. those are all starting steps

The War on Drugs traces back further than Obam, From Nixon to the Rockefeller Drug Laws

John Ehrlichman

www.ibtimes.com...

“We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the [Vietnam] war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities,” Ehrlichman continued, according to Baum. “We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

originally posted by: YenSid
a reply to: Grambler

Demilitarizing the Police, Full-Time Independent Investigators for All Police Murders, Community Review Boards. those are all starting steps

I agree with all of this, and yet don't find the police racial.

The War on Drugs traces back further than Obam, From Nixon to the Rockefeller Drug Laws

John Ehrlichman

www.ibtimes.com...

“We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the [Vietnam] war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities,” Ehrlichman continued, according to Baum. “We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

Ok if we are going back that far, the War on Poverty was started by Lyndon Johnson that said "I will have these n#####s voting Democrat for the next 100 years". So it was designed to destabilize blacks.

The founder of planned parenthood wanted abortions to curtail the number of blacks.

So would you agree with getting rid of both of these policies?

And just because Lynch and Obama didn't start these policies, they have done nothing to end them. In fact, they just last week tried to make a natural medication to end heroine addiction Kratom illegal. So they must be racist too.

I hate the war on drugs and think it is a miserable failure, but I don't think Obama and Lynch have kept it and strengthened it to hurt black people.

The problem is when you just assert this country does oppress based on race, gender, etc. you have to provide facts for this. Kaepernick and others just take it for granted that this country is oppressive, and so it is impossible to have a discussion with them.

Like for example he think cops are killing unarmed blacks more than others, and as I have shown on this thread, that is not true. How could I have a conversation with him about how to solve the problem if we can't even discuss what the problem is?

a reply to: Grambler

The problem is instead of saying Yes, Police are Killing unarmed Black people because "This" is the conversation we are having, the Narrative gets twisted and it turns into a "You have no reason to complain because "This" is happening More". also you are just accounting White and Black Races, If you added in Other Races outside of Black then it would be more than White people

But again, this is the Conversation, this is the Focus on Police killing Black people

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

The words "More" were never used in his Statement



As far as Obama keeping the policy, he, like the rest of them are bought and paid for and they are just the puppet

originally posted by: YenSid
a reply to: Grambler

The problem is instead of saying Yes, Police are Killing unarmed Black people because "This" is the conversation we are having, the Narrative gets twisted and it turns into a "You have no reason to complain because "This" is happening More". also you are just accounting White and Black Races, If you added in Other Races outside of Black then it would be more than White people

But again, this is the Conversation, this is the Focus on Police killing Black people

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

The words "More" were never used in his Statement

Thats my point though. It shouldn't be a measuring contest. Why does Colin want to make it about races? Why can't we just say the police killing innocent people is a problem. Instead, it is made racial. We see the results of that in Charlotte tonight. Now another young man has died in the name of this false narrative.

That why I want to end the war on drugs, because it is abusive to all people, not just one race. If you are going to make an issue about race, you better have proof that you are right, else you are causing unnecessary division.

As far as Obama keeping the policy, he, like the rest of them are bought and paid for and they are just the puppet

No argument there.

a reply to: Grambler

Because Race and Racism exist, and instead of talking about the Message we talk about the Methods. people hide Racism and Bigotry behind Patriotism, and we can't diminish people's feelings and experiences and say "This is how you should feel, or this is how you should protest"

Like Alice walker said, "No person is your friend who demands your silence or denies your right to grow."

October 18, 2016

There's got to be more to these National Anthem protests than meets the eye. Check this out... at a football game this weekend, only 1 player came out on the field for the National Anthem. The rest stayed in the locker room until it was over.

Story w/Photo: www.msn.com...

You think total disgust with America's political system is the (unspoken) root reason underlying these protests?

edit on 10/18/2016 by carewemust because: It's a mystery.