Interview with a 10 year old who talks about being gender non-binary

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Gender and Sex are two different things, qualities, characteristics, etc.

Sex is physiological and biological.

Gender is a cultural phenomenon related to societal roles, mores, etc. that is performed.

Sex and Gender are the same thing.

Liberals are just trying to twist 'gender' into a new definition so they can keep moving the goalposts of their agenda.

What you want to call 'gender' I call schema, stereotype and paradigm. But those don't encroach on the biology of the matter so a better word must be redefined!

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Teikiatsu

It's a scientific comment based in biology.

What do you call the hermaphrodites?

Deviations on the biological bell curve.

I didn't ask for statistics.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: queenofswords

1. Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of male and female, respectively – not genetic markers of a disorder.

You do understand that there is more than XX and XY?

You do understand those are rarities?

And?

a reply to: Teikiatsu

We are not. We are however human, and have our own opinions.
Why do you get so bent out of shape about people expressing their opinions and scientific facts?

Expressing opinions is not the same as discriminating and denying people's rights. (Not saying that you are denying their rights.)

originally posted by: Grambler
But slow down. Don't be too harsh on people, after all a youtube video that YOU posted to me on another thread from a transgender person makes the very argument that self proclaimed identities like gender fluid (as in the girl this thread are about) have no scientific basis, and are done for attention.

I don't consider Blaire White's OPINION to be authoritative nor do I think my own personal biases should be discounted in these matters but I at least try to be objective because it's no skin off my back regardless of how other choose to identify or label themselves. Non-binary, gender fluid, agender, demi-gender, etc., and the superfluous labeling of such does seem a little silly to me but it is not my place to invalidate whatever someone wants to be or call themselves. Having felt the societal pressures of being different as a child, maybe I just have more compassion and understanding of those that are marginalized by these things?

I am not also above feeling the pressure of political correctness. How can one support transgender and transsexual individuals and throw the transtrenders under the bus at the same time? That would be wrong and elitist of me to do so even though my OPINION is that transtrenders or those that claim some intermediary gender are only confusing the issues of actual trans people or as Blair White says, the "things that are scientifically observable and medically diagnosable". Heck, if being controversial for YouTube views and notoriety was my thing, I could throw the 2/3 majority of transitioned transgender people that don't seek sex reassignment surgery under the bus as being somewhat less than the real deal because they don't live up to my subjective standards but I won't go there either.

Separating the social and cultural aspects of gender performance and expression from biological predispositions or wiring is difficult because we don't grow up in a Petri dish, however, in speaking of my own experiences I had no outside social or cultural influences on my behavior or personality and just the contrary is true, in fact. Don't you think in the 50's and 60's my parents and whatever environments I was exposed to did everything possible to coerce and reinforce typical gendered behaviors and attributes? If it were true that these kinds of outside influences and factors were wholly causative or could have made me be something I was not, then I would have never grown up the way I did or turned out to be the person I am. Nobody made me be me nor could anyone or anything have made me be different and I can genuinely say I was born this way and nothing could have or ever did change that.

When it comes to those that fall outside of the masculine and feminine gender binary, I don't disagree that relaxing cultural and societal expectations has opened the door for expressions of gender that don't neatly fit at either end of the spectrum and why we see the emergence of identities that weren't labeled and identified in the past. So what. Society is not some static monolithic entity that never changes or progresses. Just look at the way gay people are perceived today compared to even 20 or 30 years ago as an example.

So why is it not ok for people to be skeptical of this situation. Do you think there is no possibility that this belief is being foisted onto the child by a parent that wants to claim victim points? It appears as if the transgender woman you posted in the youtube video would disagree with you, so it is not so cut and dry as you would make it seem.

It's okay for people to be skeptical as I have a few doubts about this whole thing as well but I do have a rather unique vantage point and perhaps a little inside insight to performed gender and what is cultural as opposed to that which is hard-wired, predisposed and innate. Do I care about identity politics or how someone wants to identify themselves? No because I don't feel it is my position, nor should it be anyone's to define someone else as that right should be left solely up to the individual. It IS my position and my duty to respect someone's self-definition, whatever that may be, even if it is awkward or uncomfortable to do so. Call me a rebel or just someone open-minded enough to not force my own opinions and standards on someone else. I call it just being a decent person.

a reply to: Freija

Look I appreciate my conversations with you, heck the fact that I remembered that video from months ago should prove that. And I understand your unique perspective on the issue.

But what is the science? Is Blair right when she says there is no science for things like gender fluid? I understand that you wouldn't have been influenced to change your gender, but then again Blair says there is science behind transgender. So perhaps a gender fluid person could be influenced by thier parents, and if so do you think that.

1. It is wrong and borderline abuse.

2. It i makes it difficult to appease gender fluid people because it is for attention.

There are difficult questions that need to be answered. On that other thread, we were discussing if gender fluid people should be allowed to use whatever restroom they want in schools. You seemed to suggest maybe not on that thread, or at least that is not what the new laws allow. If you think that we should respect gender fluid choices, should they be able to use what bathroom they want in schools?

And doesn't the fact that there are conflicts between trans gender vs. gender fluid shows that this is a difficult issue. Do you think gender fluid can hurt the rights of transgender people?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Teikiatsu

It's a scientific comment based in biology.

What do you call the hermaphrodites?

intersex is the term used for hermaphrodites and other gender disorders do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies
en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: ANNED

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Teikiatsu

It's a scientific comment based in biology.

What do you call the hermaphrodites?

intersex is the term used for hermaphrodites and other gender disorders do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies
en.wikipedia.org...

I know that. Not what I asked though.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ANNED
I do not understand why people think gender is binary.

There are 3 genders and always have been. female, male, and intersex.
en.wikipedia.org...

No. That's talking about physical characteristics.

Which gender you identify with comes from the brain. In most cases it matches the physical packaging, but not always.

No its also talking about other conditions like XX male and XY female where the physical characteristics do not match sex chromosome a large number of XY females feel male brain wise.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Freija

Look I appreciate my conversations with you, heck the fact that I remembered that video from months ago should prove that. And I understand your unique perspective on the issue.

But what is the science? Is Blair right when she says there is no science for things like gender fluid? I understand that you wouldn't have been influenced to change your gender, but then again Blair says there is science behind transgender. So perhaps a gender fluid person could be influenced by thier parents, and if so do you think that.

1. It is wrong and borderline abuse.

2. It i makes it difficult to appease gender fluid people because it is for attention.

There are difficult questions that need to be answered.

First, thank you and yes, these are difficult questions and I'm not sure I have any special qualifications to answer them nor would a single explanation covering all situations be valid. It is also hard to not interject my own personal opinions or bias into this discussion or maintain objectivity due to my own experiences but I have spent a great deal of time studying and observing family dynamics and the social aspects of gender non-conformity so perhaps there is a tidbit of merit in my comments?

Question 1 - is it parental influence wrong and borderline abuse?

I have to ask what parent would want their child to be treated like a freak, marginalized and ostracized and why they would encourage this if not first led by that child? If because Johnny likes to play with dolls, mommy thinks he should wear dresses and be a girl then yes, that is abuse but how often does this really happen? Granted, it's a wacky world out there and I wouldn't put it beyond some parents self-aggrandizing motivation to put their children through this but I think that is very rare and mostly happens in people's imagination in trying to get a handle on these things.

I've read the stories of and talked to parents of transgender children. My parents had to deal with me too in very different times and I know how they reacted. Most are initially horrified and some reject their children outright. Also keep in mind that out of the tens of thousands of parents of trans children, very few are in the public eye or speak out.

Parents of gender non-conforming children face many of the same issues. What some of this comes down to is control vs. permissiveness and being open-minded enough to let their children express themselves however they want. Transgender kids are different - they have a medically diagnosable condition whereas gender expansive or fluid kids have a social issue. Regardless, parents that standby and support their children and give them room to express themselves however they want is not the same thing as forcing a child into something.

Question 2 - being gender fluid is for attention

Ugh! This is so complicated and some of my own feelings on this don't quite tow the party line. In many aspects, all this relatively new phenomenon of gender fluidity and non-conformance is a socially influenced search for individuality. I won't deny for a minute that being gender queer/whatever is a trendy identity group adopted by some much like the emo and goth movements that many youth associate themselves with. What will those damn kids come up with next? I do, however, think it would be a mistake to categorize all gender variance as a cry for attention or uniqueness

On that other thread, we were discussing if gender fluid people should be allowed to use whatever restroom they want in schools. You seemed to suggest maybe not on that thread, or at least that is not what the new laws allow. If you think that we should respect gender fluid choices, should they be able to use what bathroom they want in schools?

Hey, I'm no expert on this and don't really have a patent answer applicable to all situations. Clearly, if a student transitions into their preferred gender full time, they should use the bathroom that matches who they are as people but when it comes to someone that presents as a boy one week and a girl the next, I honestly don't know what I think other than it is confusing and weird. If I think that, I can only imagine how people without my experiences feel about it.

And doesn't the fact that there are conflicts between trans gender vs. gender fluid shows that this is a difficult issue. Do you think gender fluid can hurt the rights of transgender people?

In some respects, I curmudgeonly think the aspired rights of some transgender people may hurt the rights of those truly transsexual and that things like gender fluidity confuse the issues for those that are transgender. At one point that seemed to peak about five years ago, there was a dedicated transsexual separatist movement attempting to distance themselves from some of the crazy demands of those others that fall under the general transgender umbrella. Do I agree with all the talking points and politics of the transgender movement? No and I detest how the whole thing has become politicized but what isn't these days?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Teikiatsu

It's a scientific comment based in biology.

What do you call the hermaphrodites?

Deviations on the biological bell curve.

I didn't ask for statistics.

Well that's what you got, because that's what deviations are.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: queenofswords

1. Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of male and female, respectively – not genetic markers of a disorder.

You do understand that there is more than XX and XY?

You do understand those are rarities?

And?

That makes them deviations.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Teikiatsu

We are not. We are however human, and have our own opinions.
Why do you get so bent out of shape about people expressing their opinions and scientific facts?

Expressing opinions is not the same as discriminating and denying people's rights. (Not saying that you are denying their rights.)

On this we can agree. I fully support their rights to express themselves freely so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.

What needs to be sorted out are what is considered fundamental human rights, not privileges or special treatment.