Interview with a 10 year old who talks about being gender non-binary

a reply to: Annee

Congratulations... How about when you were 10??
I doubt it.
I'll say it again, you can disagree if you want, but it speaks to your point as well.
Children do not know if they were meant to be a boy or girl. They don't even know the difference.
Even if someone was meant to be the different gender, how is a parent supposed to differentiate between kids being kids, a girl being a tomboy and a feminine boy?
Is every parent with an eccentric child supposed to play into their child like delusions?
Once they are through with puberty and able to know their bodies a bit more, then become a legal adult, they can do whatever they want.
Until then, leave the kids alone and let time work it out.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall
a reply to: Gryphon66

Yeah, sex is when i sometimes get some. Gender is what's needed to pull it off.

You sound triggered.

Har har.

When you work your way up to an actual claim besides sophomoric bedroom humor, let me know.

The entire premise is juvenile and can't be responded to seriously. But I'll try. What exactly about the male gender for example, is a social construct or ehm, phenomenon? The fact boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls supposed to be some sort of gender pressure parents apply to their kids? Is that where this is going? That girls like pink and boys like blue some kind of social construct? That boys play rough and girls play house some kind of social construct? Who you decide to be intimate with as an adult is just sexual preference. You don't get to make up pseudo scientific labels to describe it.

I would like to ask if anyone listened to the radio interview? CatandtheHatchet confirmed they had and disagreed with my observations in my OP. Without trying to detract from the non-binary issue my main concern was with the mother. I believe I raised valid concerns.

Just for the record (if you are not aware), I am a homosexual male. I lost part of my childhood and had to grow up very quickly and look after my younger siblings for a period of time. This was due to the selfish acts of my parents and a very messy divorce which I don't really want to go into. My father is also very homophobic. Some will be quick to point out that my own personal experiences should help me relate and empathise. My answer is yes and no.

What I mean by no is that my childhood resulted in me becoming extremely passionate about the maintaining of the 'experience of childhood' at all costs. Its an emotional thing with me and I know its baggage. If I can get past that and start reading then other people should be able to do this as well.

Part of the process of learning is challenging and asking questions. Discussion should progress ideas and understanding. Thanks Annee for understanding the direction I am coming from. I

genderspectrum has some information for parents which I want to share to discuss.

Gender is more complex than most of us have been taught. Gender is made up of three parts:

(1) gender biology (our bodies or biological sex – our sex assigned at birth based on appearance of genitals)

(2) gender expression (how we dress and act)

(3) gender identity (how we feel inside).

For most kids, these three facets of gender line up and the kids are typically gendered boys or girls (cisgender). For other kids, however, these three facets of gender align differently; these kids are Gender-expansive, which includes transgender kids. Although our society teaches us that there are only two genders—male and female—there are really many genders. Not all children fit neatly into a male or female gender identity.

For some children, the sense of being “both” or “neither” best describes their reality. Some of these kids speak of being more of one some days and more of the other on different days; these children might best be described as gender fluid. These are all normal variations in human gender and do not mean something is wrong with a child. A child’s gender is not what others tell them, but who they know themselves to be. Even though we as parents have great influence over our children, parents can’t change a child’s true gender identity or expressions of their gender. However, we can help our children to have a healthy, positive sense of themselves in relation to their gender.

Young Children
If your child has identified as the opposite gender since early childhood, it is unlikely they will change their mind. Most people have some sense of their gender identity between the ages of two and four years old. For most, this awareness remains stable over time. For example, a 12 year old child who was assigned a male gender at birth, but has consistently asserted “I am a girl” since the age of three, will most likely remain transgender throughout life.

There are cases when a young child who strongly identifies with the opposite gender does change their mind. The most common time for this to occur is about 9-10 years old. There is insufficient research to know if these children later identify as gender-expansive or transgender adults. So, it is unclear if this change indicates that the child has learned to hide their true self, or if it was indeed just a childhood phase.

Teens
Another typical time for gender identity to come into question is at puberty. Many teens who have never exhibited anything outside the norm in their gender expression or identity, start feeling differently as puberty approaches. This can be very confusing for parents who “didn’t see this coming.” Since adolescence is a time of exploration and change in general, it can be hard for parents to know if this is just a teenage phase, or whether their child is “really” gender-expansive or transgender. Again, look to the concept of insistence, consistence and persistence to determine if a child is truly gender-expansive or transgender. This may mean you won’t have an answer for quite a long time.

Though these are two common times for gender identity to come up for children, they are certainly not the only times. A child at any age, even to adulthood, can start feeling differently about their gender identity or expression.

As stated in my OP, I understand children born in the wrong body and the consistency throughout their lives. Many ATS members are not even at this stage of awareness/understanding and yet the above cited info is now saying that not all gender dysphoric children follow this pattern and there is a real possibility that some reject that identity in later years. As stated, there is no follow-up research to assess if any temporary transition during childhood resulted in any long-standing psychological/emotional issues.

I would like to share a story about a close friend of mine. He is bisexual but dislikes being called bisexual. He says he has periods where he is completely heterosexual and other periods where he is completely homosexual. I have known him 30+ years and due to a bad childhood has a driving force (subconscious motivation) for the need of total and unconditional love. He gets romantically involved very quickly and his relationships last a maximum of 2 years with his partners finishing the relationship.

He flits between heterosexual/homosexual lifestyles after each relationship ie if the relationship that just finished was heterosexual he will discard the associated lifestyle and take on board the opposite lifestyle completely (cyclical behaviour) based on emotional rejection. Of course I am not suggesting he is typical of sexual fluidity but he is certainly proof that SOME individuals are influenced by emotions or other factors.

Another example. A friend of my mother has a lesbian daughter. Several months after she came out in her teens her close cousin announced that she was also lesbian. To cut a long story short it transpired that she was not in fact bisexual, she was envious of the attention her cousin was getting. She played the lesbian role to the extreme of getting a girlfriend, cutting her hair off and wearing male clothes. Again I am not suggesting all lesbians are like this.

Can you see the point I am trying to make? Is it so wrong to suggest that children may be influenced in this way as well?


Link

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall
a reply to: Gryphon66

Yeah, sex is when i sometimes get some. Gender is what's needed to pull it off.

You sound triggered.

Har har.

When you work your way up to an actual claim besides sophomoric bedroom humor, let me know.

The entire premise is juvenile and can't be responded to seriously. But I'll try. What exactly about the male gender for example, is a social construct or ehm, phenomenon? The fact boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls supposed to be some sort of gender pressure parents apply to their kids? Is that where this is going? That girls like pink and boys like blue some kind of social construct? That boys play rough and girls play house some kind of social construct? Who you decide to be intimate with as an adult is just sexual preference. You don't get to make up pseudo scientific labels to describe it.

Is there something biological that would cause boys to play with trucks? Is there something biological taht woudl cause girls to play with dolls? No?

Then what is it? Why do they do that? Is it because that's what their parents did? Is it because that's what their parents think is "right"? Is it "girlish" for a boy to play with a doll? Is it "boyish" for a girl to play with a truck?

Yes, with no biological imperative to do either, merely societal expectations? Cultural roles?

Gosh, you answered your own question.

(Not sure about your tacking on "sexual orientation" there at the end, but you did get in a silly, misdirected "pseudoscience" accusation there.)

I'm guessing you missed it the first time through, so I'll make it simple:

Is there something in ovaries or estrogen that compels a girl to play with a doll?

Is there something in testes or testosterone that compels a boy to play with a truck?

No, of course not. Those behaviors are a cultural performance of gender roles.

Sex and gender are different.

A simple Google search will show you this. Please come back when you understand a bit about the proper terminology to use in the discussion.

a reply to: Morrad

Are you suggesting that sexual orientation is mainly or primarily a function of environment?

a reply to: Annee

So the brain is in charge. In a way, I can kind of see that.

My concern with that, though, as a simple explanation is that we have so poisoned our environment that the chemical composition of our brain has changed...and not for the better.

We have royally effed up our planet, and as a result, we are royally effing up US.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Not at all. I was trying to demonstrate that some individuals are motivated by emotion rather than biology.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: coop039

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: coop039

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Macenroe82

My daughter tells me every day that the other boys put Eric through the ringer. That hes always crying, and upset, getting beat on by groups of boys.

What's wrong with the school?

The child should be protected.

And she doesn't "think" she's a girl - - she is a girl (in the wrong packaging).

There may be nothing wrong with the school. Kids can be cruel, but you cant assign a personal safety officer for every kid that gets picked on. I know its wrong, but theres just no avoiding it, there will always be mean kids, just like there will always be mean adults.

EVERY Kid?

How many young kids do you think are going to OPENLY identify as Transgender? Or non-binary?

Oh stop it. You know I meant bullying in general. I in no way said every kid had gender issues.
There will always be kids who pick on other kids (for all kinds of stuff). And schools can only do so much.

I'll keep my zero tolerance for bullying school then.

You can have yours.

Your trying to inject something into this that I never said.
There is not one school, not one, where bullying or teasing doesnt exist. The school may have a no tolerance policy towards bullying, but kids finds ways. And if you think in your school there is no bullying or teasing going on at all, than you are mistaken.

Let me make this clear I DONT AGREE AT ALL WITH BULLING OR TEASING, but it exists, it always has, and always will.

originally posted by: coop039

Let me make this clear I DONT AGREE AT ALL WITH BULLING OR TEASING, but it exists, it always has, and always will.

OK, TRUCE

I grew up in the 50's. Have heard "bullying is a right of passage" way too many times in real life and here on ATS.

My grandson's elementary school has outdoor achievement award assemblies. It's surprising, and a bit refreshing - - the kids that stand out as different - - usually get the loudest applause.

It's like they're being celebrated for being brave in being themselves.

Some parents "get it" - - this is their kid's world - - not theirs.

originally posted by: Jansy

My concern with that, though, as a simple explanation is that we have so poisoned our environment that the chemical composition of our brain has changed...and not for the better.

Except these gender variants aren't a new thing.

We are just evolving in our knowledge and understanding of how much the brain is instrumental in who we are.

We have royally effed up our planet, and as a result, we are royally effing up US.

This I'm not going to argue about.

We, as a whole (worldwide) need to get our priorities straightened out.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Is there something biological that would cause boys to play with trucks? Is there something biological taht woudl cause girls to play with dolls? No?

Is there something in ovaries or estrogen that compels a girl to play with a doll?

Is there something in testes or testosterone that compels a boy to play with a truck?

No, of course not. Those behaviors are a cultural performance of gender roles.

Absolutely unequivocally yes there is a biochemical response to boy/girl toys. Society didn't place that on them. I'm sorry if i sound crude but this is just garbage what you said. Boys like trucks so toy trucks are marketed to boys. Girls like dolls so marketing companies make barbies. Show me one peer reviewed study that states gender roles are purely societal. You're telling me, statistically, normal kids aren't able to discern for themselves what their toy preferences are? You've got to be kidding. Kids at an early age develop differences and they know it pretty quick. Their preference for gender specific toys is equal to their preference for gender specific careers. Just like fireman/policeman/athlete for boys and doctors/nurses/teachers for girls. That's never changed.

So, let me get this straight. I'm a male and I have a penis. Can I decide I want to be a woman because I feel like it and keep my manhood? Can i change my gender at will? Can I change my race as well? Can I be a 6'2 well hung Chinese woman? does that work for you?

a reply to: TheFlyOnTheWall
As to your request for a study that gender roles are societally constructed?

Here's a primer:

The Social Construction of Reality, Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann, (1967)

That should get you started. If you get anywhere with that, look this one up:

Questioning Gender and Sexual Identity: Dynamic Links Over Time, Diamond, L.M. & Butterworth, M. (2008)

Other followup reading:

The Blank Slate : The Modern Denial of Human Nature. Pinker, Steven (2002)
"On the Construction of Gender, Sex, and Sexualities". Marecek, J., Crawford, M., & Popp, D. (2004).

And really, you can find any amount of scientific studies on the topic by typing in "Social Construction of Gender" into a search engine.

No, I said nothing about kids "being unable to determine toy preferences." Why not quote me instead of paraphrasing?

As to the "preference for gender specific toys and careers" I submit that you're living in your own delusions for the most part.

Can you decide that you want to be a woman and keep your "manhood" (interesting that you equate having a penis with "manhood")? Well, whimsical selection not the basis that anyone claims for gender identity, but, sure, you can keep your willie and live as a woman.

Pre-op male to female trans* folks do it all the time.

Can you change your gender at will?

Followup: Can you change all of your fundamental means of identifying yourself? Your upbringing, history, beliefs, tendencies, etc. at will?

Can you change your race? Try it. You'd probably be surprised at the reactions.

Frankly, none of you diatribe "works for me" ... you're desperately trying to defend your outdated beliefs by making absurd statements and all you're accomplishing is revealing just how fundamentally ill-informed your positions are on the topic.

a reply to: TheFlyOnTheWall

Since you're interested in toy preferences ... you may want to check this article out:

Transgender Kids Show Consistent Gender Identity Across Measures

A study with 32 transgender children, ages 5 to 12, indicates that the gender identity of these children is deeply held and is not the result of confusion about gender identity or pretense. The study, led by Kristina Olson of the University of Washington, is one of the first to explore gender identity in transgender children using implicit measures that operate outside conscious awareness and are, therefore, less susceptible to modification than self-report measures.

On the IAT measuring children’s gender identity, transgender children showed a strong implicit identification with their expressed gender. When the researchers looked at the data according to the children’s expressed gender, they saw that the data from transgender girls showed the same pattern as the data from cisgender girls and the data from transgender boys showed the same pattern as data from cisgender boys. And Olson and colleague saw the exact same pattern of findings when they looked at data from an IAT test that tapped into the children’s gender preferences. Transgender children also showed the same pattern of results as cisgender children on the explicit measures included in the study. For example, transgender girls, just like cisgender girls, preferred to be friends with other girls and they tended to prefer toys and foods that other girls liked.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
The study, led by Kristina Olson of the University of Washington, is one of the first to explore gender identity in transgender children using implicit measures that operate outside conscious awareness and are, therefore, less susceptible to modification than self-report measures.

Kristina Olson

a reply to: TheFlyOnTheWall

As to boys liking trucks and girls liking dolls ... two different studies with primates do show a sex difference in preference.

Two independent studies in 2002, performed by Gerianne M. Alexander and Melissa Hines, and in 2008, performed by Janice M. Hassett, Erin R. Siebert, and Kim Wallen, showed preferences to toys based on gender using first vervet then the rhesus monkeys. Male monkeys favored toys considered to be for boys (ball, car), while female monkeys were drawn to stereotypical girl toys (baby doll). The gender neutral toys (book, stuffed dog) were played with equally. The fascinating thing about the studies is that the subjects had no external pressure to play with one toy over the other. They were not under any societal pressure or influence to choose a toy based on what they should because of gender norms and roles.

Why though?

“These data suggest that males show strong preferences for mechanical toys or strong aversion to plush toys, when they are asked to choose between two competing toys presented simultaneously, while females do not show this bias…for toy choice, information processing may be filtered in males. Wheeled toys command attention and their perceptual characteristics overshadow information coming from plush toys. Females do not filter information in this fashion, thus all toys are equally interesting.”

So, boys do like things with wheels or that roll. Even boy monkeys. Girls seem to like everything.

But interestingly as the previous article demonstrated, trans* kids show the same preferences based on their "preferred gender."

parent.co

a reply to: Freija

If you believe that non-typical gender expression is something that can be caused or promoted or that this is something foisted on children by their misguided parents or follow-the-leader pressure from peers or the media or something in the water, in most cases you would be completely wrong.

But slow down. Don't be too harsh on people, after all a youtube video that YOU posted to me on another thread from a transgender person makes the very argument that self proclaimed identities like gender fluid (as in the girl this thread are about) have no scientific basis, and are done for attention.



So why is it not ok for people to be skeptical of this situation. Do you think there is no possibility that this belief is being foisted onto the child by a parent that wants to claim victim points? It appears as if the transgender woman you posted in the youtube video would disagree with you, so it is not so cut and dry as you would make it seem.

a reply to: Gryphon66

But trans people or just the whole lbgtq2 rainbow are just quirks in the chromosomal process. They don't get their own gender for it. Just like kids born with down syndrome aren't a new species. Women are from Venus, men are from Mars. Women have an intricate wiring system whilst men have boxes with 'stuff'. And none of those boxes touch each other. And we never ever put one box's contents into another box. We're different sexes, male & female, not androgynous. That's the way it has always been.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Teikiatsu

It's a scientific comment based in biology.

What do you call the hermaphrodites?

Deviations on the biological bell curve.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: queenofswords

1. Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of male and female, respectively – not genetic markers of a disorder.

You do understand that there is more than XX and XY?

You do understand those are rarities?

originally posted by: Painterz
Why does this website wind up with so many threads full of people hating on LGBTQ people?

If you think this is hate, you need to recalibrate your empathy. At most it's exasperation.

Why do so many of you get your panties in such a twist about how other people you don't know feel about their sexual identity?

We are not. We are however human, and have our own opinions.

Why do you get so bent out of shape about people expressing their opinions and scientific facts?

Why on earth does it matter to you so much?

Because society matters. Truth matters. Objective analysis matters.

I don't care how anybody else cares to define their own existence. It doesn't hurt me. It's none of my business.

I feel the same way. Unfortunately there is a extremely vocal extreme minority trying to force the rest of us to follow in their groupthink about feelings and identity. It gets old.

I'm genuinely baffled as to why so many people on this website feel threatened by it. It's bizarre.

We aren't threatened. That is your interpretation. Recalibration of empathy is definitely in order.

Overall I found your entire post hateful and knee-jerk. But guess what? Feel free to be that way. Just don't attribute your own anger to the rest of us.