Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 14:34King James Version (KJV)

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Hey Chester...You wanna tell me exactly WHICH LAW Paul was referring to?? Just curious.


Oh, and guess women aren't included in the " there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Paul can't seem to keep his relegation of "freedom and non-freedom" straight. (you probably need to go online and look up some "apologetic" explanation for just why Paul is speaking out of both sides of his mouth...just like any politician we have today. ( (I prefer "snake in the grass", actually).

Acts 13:9-11 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Luke 9:56
“For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.”

He calls Paul after the original 11 plus the one did not go any further than Samaria at that time to preach the Kingdom nor were they baptizing in the name of the Father the Son and of the Holy Ghost But only in the name of Jesus. This was because there was not going to be a earthly kingdom right away.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.(guess that leaves Paul out of being included in the TWELVE)

This was because there was not going to be a earthly kingdom right away.

New International Version
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Living Translation
You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."

English Standard Version
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Berean Study Bible
Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Berean Literal Bible
nor will they say, 'Behold here,' or 'There.' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New American Standard Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, 'Look here!' or 'There!' For you see, the kingdom of God is among you."

International Standard Version
People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."

NET Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Heart English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here.' or, 'Look, there.' for the Kingdom of God is within you."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Neither do they say, 'Behold, here it is!' and 'Behold, from here to there!', for behold, the Kingdom of God is within some of you.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

New American Standard 1977
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
neither shall they say, Behold it here! or, Behold it there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

King James 2000 Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

American King James Version
Neither shall they say, See here! or, see there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

American Standard Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Darby Bible Translation
nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

English Revised Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Webster's Bible Translation
Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Weymouth New Testament
Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' --for the Kingdom of God is within you."

World English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

Young's Literal Translation
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

It's already within US...if we have the true Ruach Qodesh, Chester. The FEMININE aspect of the TRUE MOST HIGH GOD.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Your misogynistic view of the teaching of God is between you and him. And your misunderstanding that slaves and servants are no longer Different when it comes to faith in Christ, and the fact we have not slaves and masters today as much as we have employer and employee relationships.

Don't drag me into your problems you have with God's word. If you would study the way the Bible says too instead of your biased and prejudiced (meaning already having a point of view and not caring to hear the truth) methods, you might just understand.

Keep this is mind, there are 3 types of context you need to keep in mind when studying so you can rightly divide the word of truth, First, Historical, Second, Doctrinal and Third, Spiritual. The historical context is almost always the immediate context. When it came to the teachings of Paul and Jesus both gave women their do when necessary, things are always to be done decently and in order. So the order is what you do not like especially the gender order which starts in Genesis and goes all the way to Revelation. You need to take that up with God. If you wont hear his word then I am not sure how you are going to hear him for we are sanctified by the word of God and the word is truth.

BTW, Understanding comes from the Holy Ghost if you cannot understand the Bible then it is between you and him. If I say what it seems to be, you'll just call me judgmental and not loving.

But the verse you quoted in Galatians is speaking of 2 things 1)the unity of Christ with the believer, and 2) more specific to the context is that ALL ARE SAVED THE SAME WAY AND BY THE SAME METHOD. No special way for Jews or Gentiles, slave or free, male or female in this day and age. We are not in the kingdom but the church, the body of Christ age. Life comes not from the law but from faith in Jesus Christ finished work of the cross alone, the ransom he spoke of and through Paul expanded upon.

Here is the verse you quoted in context

Galatians 3:25-29 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now as far as how this teaching of unity relates to Jesus Christ is found in his prayer in John 17, and His teaching of the Faith is found in his teaching that his life is a ransom for many of which Paul expands in Galatians and Timothy, and what Jesus meant that by faith sins are forgiven

John 17:16 -23 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Matthew 9:2, 22, 29 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. . . But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. . . Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Continuation:

The context of Galatians and 1 Cor 14 are two totally different contexts and you can't just wrongly join scriptures as you have, because by wrongly combining the word of God you are making it say something it does not say or teach.

Peter said that people who do that sort of thing with the teachings of Paul do the same thing with all the scriptures, and that they are unstable and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction

2Peter 3:14-17 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Either you are willful in denying the truth of God's words or you are still unlearned and easily dissuaded from the truth by someone elses teaching. Peter earlier in the same letter said,

2Peter 2:1-2 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

You know, this last year going through the Bible trying to see if what LastDays/Gnosisisfaith/SethTsaddik and even what you have been saying were true about Paul. But yet the more I compared the spiritual teaching of Jesus with that of Paul I found that Paul does in fact expand on most of the teachings of Jesus that are profitable to the church today. There is some Kingdom stuff he does not teach and for good reason it just is not applicable for today. But Jesus by revelation to Paul expanded on what teachings that were needed to edify the church.

Sorry for being straight forward but the word of God remains true and the false teaching you and the others are giving are perverse things Paul warned us about, even to the point of denying the Lord Jesus who bought us with his own blood.

Acts 20:28-29 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

You yourself said earlier in this thread that you do not believe Jesus died, as a sacrifice for your sins.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Paul expands in Galatians and Timothy, and what Jesus meant that by faith sins are forgiven

I'm just gonna skip over most of that rhetoric you wrote and get to this point....Jesus taught way more than "my death will mean your sins are forgiven".
He taught how to treat people (even your enemies), he taught what the true God was like (because He was indwelt by that TRUE GOD).
Paul didn't expound on anything except his own "gospel"...which was of his own making (or of the making of the enemy).
Let me ask you something....WHY IN THE WORLD would Jesus spend all that time training and discipling 12 men ( one who eventually betrayed Him), only to change His whole doctrine and give it to ONE murdering Pharisee?
Does that make any kind of sense?
If we hold to your doctrine of there being a NEW doctrine (according to Paul), then Jesus wasted a whole bunch of time training those 12 guys (or 11, if you discount Judas).
WHY would Jesus do all that He did.....to pick some random Pharisee (that He actually said to beware of), and do something radically different?
Oh...what...GOD couldn't come up with a better way to get His message across? He basically sent His Son to do all that He commanded Him to do, filled Jesus with His own voice, gave Him the power to perform miracles, and even told HIM who to pick to BE the chosen disciples.....
and then changed the whole plan in order to use a PHARISEE (of the tribe of Benjamin (the wolf in sheep's clothing)...to take the NEW message to the gentiles....who didn't know any better.)
Yea, right.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Keep this is mind, there are 3 types of context you need to keep in mind when studying so you can rightly divide the word of truth, First, Historical, Second, Doctrinal and Third, Spiritual.

Bullcrap. That's the way people who have been to "seminary" talk...or let me say "cemetery". You don't need any of that if you truly have been filled with the Spirit of TRUTH.....which is NOT the "Holy Ghost".

And your misunderstanding that slaves and servants are no longer Different when it comes to faith in Christ, and the fact we have not slaves and masters today as much as we have employer and employee relationships.

Calling "Bullcrap" again. Do you want to be a slave, Chester? What if you were a black man in the era that slaves were used as commodities? Hmmmm.....what if you were beaten and abused and treated like dirt? Would you kiss your masters feet and say, "Oh, thank you Jesus"? You are so full of it, I don't know how to get through to you anymore.

When it came to the teachings of Paul and Jesus both gave women their do when necessary, things are always to be done decently and in order. So the order is what you do not like especially the gender order which starts in Genesis and goes all the way to Revelation. You need to take that up with God.

Oh...I have and I will continue to do so. You see...I don't see YHWH as a benevolent "god". He was a misogynistic jerk just as Paul was. You need order don't you? Order in what? Order in your wife being submissive to you?? Order in MEN ruling everything? Yea, that's what I thought. Must be quite comfy for you there, Chester. Good thing you're not female...you might have a different opinion.

Don't drag me into your problems you have with God's word. If you would study the way the Bible says too instead of your biased and prejudiced (meaning already having a point of view and not caring to hear the truth) methods, you might just understand.

I didn't drag you into anything. You just like to argue. 90 plus pages of arguing. WHO do you think you are defending? GOD? Or is it your male ego? Me thinks it's the latter.
I think you have no leg to stand on but to constantly repeat yourself and also tell me I need to study the Bible. Which, makes me realize you don't actually pay attention. Cause I've studied it ad nauseum...and after believing just as you...AND being as fundamentalist as YOU are to others, have come to my OWN conclusions due to studying and actually being brave enough to question just what it was I held so dearly to....that didn't add up. You're still stuck where I was at 5 years ago. It's very liberating to be "out of the box" of religion and doctrine, Chester. A whole new world opens up to you. Oh, and you truly learn to love all those that Jesus said to.

and what Jesus meant that by faith sins are forgiven

You might want to go back and review what Jesus taught about sins being forgiven....it's definitely not "grace".

a reply to: ChesterJohn

But yet the more I compared the spiritual teaching of Jesus with that of Paul I found that Paul does in fact expand on most of the teachings of Jesus that are profitable to the church today

REALLY? Have you even LOOKED at the church "today"? It's a divided mess. Huh...guess Paul did a whole bunch of DIVISION.
Yea, great "expounding".
So, you think Jesus needed HELP? He needed "expounding"???
That's hilarious. Yea, last mega church I went to had TV''s in the freaking bathrooms...oh, and the pastor is a well know Christian singer....and just LOOOOVES to kiss babies at all the baptisms.
But, if you get bored, you can always go take a bathroom break and watch the HTV channel....OR, wait for the end of the sermon that's on PAUL and then go get your wonderful coffee and hot chocolate from the way over the top coffee bar (oh, while watching your kiddo's get tarted around in a giant sleigh for the kiddo's so they don't get bored while their parents are at the wonderful mega church.
Oh wait! You can also make sure your rich kids get to go to the youth group (which by the way...my kids just LOVE to go to) because they have all the new X-box and fog machines so the kids don't get bored.
Ummm.. and in case you want to back peddle and say that's due to "man" making a mockery out of the TRUTH, well...it's the same at just about every youth group out there...it just depends on their financial ability to make it more entertaining.
I have boys. Do you want to know why they go? One is 12 and goes cause it's "fun". My 15 year old goes cause he's committed himself to playing "worship" music to entertain people...and he thinks it's all bullcrap. He does it anyway, even though he's prayed his rear off to hear from "god". He's a great kid, good heart, and would give you the shirt off his back if asked. He also is a vegetarian, cause he thinks it's wrong to hurt animals. Has "god" spoken" to him in all his efforts?? NOPE.
So, tell me Chester, just what do I say to him? Should I read him more of Paul's BS? Cause he read Paul's comment's on women and slaves (on his own) and said, "mom, how can ANY woman like or believe Paul?)
Hmmm.....got any answers for him there , Chester?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

You really do not understand Scriptures at all. I am trying to respond to your three posts at once in this one post. I'll try to be civil if I can.

"Seminary talk" I doubt you have ever been to one, let alone know anything about Seminaries. But I bet you are parroting someone else. People resort to these types of phrases who have been shown the truth and they can no longer discuss with civility (also using words like Bullc###). They begin to slowly cry wolf and say others are judgemental and not being loving, call them prideful and arrogant la di da di da and so on and so forth.

But have you read your own words? If you would step back and read what you have posted as another person, you would see you are the one who has become that which you accuse others of.

In the last two posts I was being civil, loving, abase and gentle as I could. But you have continued again and again to ridicule, attack, curse, all manner of ill repute and have yet to really, truly and sincerely look into what the scriptures actually say apposed to what you try and make them say to satisfy your lusts. You just can't make this stuff up as you go along. Do you not understand that when a person privily bring in a heretical teaching that you made out of all those verses you list that this is what was warned about from Peter? And that scripture is not of any Private Interpretation, Privy is the root word of Private. You either would not or could not correctly unite the words "privy bring in damnable heresies" and "no prophecy of scripture is of any private Interpretation" to see that you have fallen into this type of interpretation of scripture, and I venture to say it is to justify some sort of activity on going in your life.

Anyone with any Idea from the scriptures can tell that 1Cor 14 and Galatians 3 have absolutely no common context by which to link them to the doctrine in which you have introduced into the thread. The only link these two books bare are that they are to the church today and have exhortation for us today.

The church as you know is not buildings and organizations, and yes I have looked at the church today. It has been taken over by business men for a profit while maintaining a not for profit status. The assembling of the church(people who are saved are the true church) into one place was not meant to be a carrier in which one gets all the great amenities of life and more. Jesus spoke of this, as recorded three times by his disciples, and it is expanded on by Paul, when Jesus said,

Lu 22:25-27 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Mt 20:25-28 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mr 10:42-45 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Oh my, there is those words that you hate so much "to give his life a ransom for many" you despise that which God has done for you. Just as the scriptures shown you above say of those who follow their pernicious ways.

I can make a judgement by all that you have said, You are lost as a turnip in a potato truck.

As far a baptizing babies you are mixing up true Christianity which would only baptize an adult or one who understands their salvation and wants to identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, with the Roman Catholicism and its subsidiaries that came out of it in the supposed reformation that continue that blasphemous practice.

Another judgement I make, of which I as a free will person can make, by your rantings and blathering sputter, you are as confused and a cow in a tornado when it comes to the church and the true church.

There is no need for me to challenge you to study the Bible you have already made up your mind what to believe and who to listen to and it is not God, nor Jesus Christ, nor the Holy Ghost. It is your own will worship of self and what you want and desire that God's word opposes or denies you of.

Throw away your Bible you don't believe it anyway, that much is plain and the sun in the sky. You have taken everything I have tried to show you and create a sophistic argument just for the point of arguing. I'll take my leave on some instructions given to an Individual

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

Dust Dust I shake you off my feet, I want not even your dust to cling to me. Another teaching of Jesus you wouldn't nor couldn't find and apply to your life if it would save you.

You have made your bed now lay on it.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The context of Galatians and 1 Cor 14 are two totally different contexts and you can't just wrongly join scriptures as you have, because by wrongly combining the word of God you are making it say something it does not say or teach.

Oh, please enlighten me then. How do you explain Paul's "putting women in their place"? I'm really interested in the "context" of that one. Especially when Paul said in Galatians that there is neither "male nor female" and we are all one in Christ. Which would mean...WE ARE ALL ONE...meaning EQUAL.
Same thing with "bond nor free"...meaning no one is a SLAVE (according to Paul). Oh wait...unless you ARE ONE. Then, I guess you just have to say, "oh gee....I'm a slave (or employee), which the employee comparison makes no kinda sense.
A slave answers to a master, and can be subjected to that master's whim's.
SO Chester....just how is that slave supposed to accept his predicament? With gratitude? Because, hey, he's actually FREE in Jesus (no matter if he's beaten or not). Or, just how is the women who's told it's shameful for her to speak in the congregation, supposed to take that command from Paul?
Once again, Jesus came to set men free (not BLIND THEM) as Paul did. Nor did Jesus come to subjugate women under men. Name one time He treated them unequal. Oh, and I hardly see Jesus upholding slavery (in His Name). Really dude.

Peter said that people who do that sort of thing with the teachings of Paul do the same thing with all the scriptures, and that they are unstable and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction

I don't believe Peter wrote 2nd Peter. It's been disputed by many biblical scholars as even being legit.

"There has been much debate over the authorship of 2 Peter. Most conservative evangelicals hold to the traditional view that Peter was the author, but historical and literary critics have almost unanimously concluded that to be impossible. For example: Ksemann states that 2 Peter is “perhaps the most dubious writing” in the New Testament.1 Harris says, “virtually none believe that 2 Peter was written by Jesus’ chief disciple.”2 And Brevard S. Childs, an excellent rhetorical critic, shows his assumption when he says, “even among scholars who recognize the non-Petrine authorship there remains the sharpest possible disagreement on a theological assessment.”3

The result of this debate is that 2 Peter is concluded by most critical scholars to be pseudepigraphal literature. But the evangelical world rejects the critics’ claims. Conservatives say this has serious ramifications for the doctrines of inspiration and inerrancy. The critics, on the other hand, claim this was standard procedure and therefore not dishonest."

The above was a copy/paste from "Bible.org". Either way, 2 Peter has been disputed in it's authenticity for a long time....by many well know biblical scholars. It's FUNDAMENTALISTS who can't seem to actually think outside of the fundamental box (which would by you).
I think one of Paul's cronies copied much of Jude (which is very similar to 2nd Peter), then inserted their own stamp of approval on their buddy Paul.
Same with 1st Peter. Peter didn't even WRITE 1st Peter. First off, Peter wasn't in Babylon (or Rome). Who was? PAUL.
Remember Chester??? You said that those of the circumcision only spread the word to the Jews (namely the other apostles besides Paul...who supposedly took the message to the gentiles) Right? So, explain the below....

Final Greetings (1st Peter 5: 12-13)
12 With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.
13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

Huh.....so Silas was a convert of PAUL...and Mark was another disciple of PAUL (who Paul dissed later because Mark probably saw through Paul and chose to go with Barnabus and and BACK to the TRUE apostles).

Peter had nothing to do with either of them....nor was Peter in Rome (which was a euphemism for Babylon in that day).
So, you can't have it BOTH ways Chester. You say Paul had the authority from "the Holy Ghost" to take "his gospel" (pun intended) to the gentiles, while Peter and the other TRUE apostles were supposed to take the true Kingdom message to those of the circumcision. Correct? So, what the heck would Peter be doing with Paul in Rome? I mean, wasn't that Paul's job? (according to Paul).

Both 1st and 2nd Peter smack of plagiarism and pseudepigraphal literature. Neither of those two letters even match in their writing style....but I'll tell you who they "smack of".....Paul or someone who followed him and his false gospel.
Ummmm, so how do you make sense of that, sir?

Oh wait...I know, you shall "shake the dust of me from your feet".

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Throw away your Bible you don't believe it anyway, that much is plain and the sun in the sky. You have taken everything I have tried to show you and create a sophistic argument just for the point of arguing. I'll take my leave on some instructions given to an Individual

Yea, those instructions were given by PAUL to Timothy. Can seem to quote Jesus can you? Oh, except for the "shaking the dust off your feet part", lol.
You have shown me nothing, Chester....nor have you been able to argue or debate SENSIBLY all I have pointed out to you. Then only thing you do is repeat yourself ad nauseum about "context" and "the preserved word of god".....(translation: either take it at face value, do NOT EVER, EVER question it, or you are a HEATHEN DESTINED FOR HELL).
Is that about right?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Contrary to common misconceptions, Paul was never proclaimed apostle to the gentiles, as a gentile is simply a non Jew and it is tradition that Thomas went to the are of India near Persia and the 12 apostles, 11 at the time I believe, were told to go out to "all nations" and baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit.

Gentiles are ''the nations" in Greek, meaning outside of Israel/Nazarene Judaism, sometimes it just means Greeks. At best he CALLED himself apostle to goyim, nations or just Greeks, but it was not recognized by the apostles or James in any writing we have that Paul even was AN apostle, never mind exclusive apostle to the Roman world outside of Asia or all non Jews.

Acts records Peter as having been well known for being chosen by God as the apostle to the "gentiles" and that tells me that despite the belief that Peter is the God chosen apostle to the gentiles Paul desires that title and campaigns against Peter and even James and John and claims to talk to post ascension Jesus in private to make his deception sound like it came from God.

Also it is recorded that the only person ever forbidden from preaching anywhere but in this case Asia (7 church's of Asia) by the Holy Spirit, was PAUL!

He was not given exclusive rights to the Roman territories, he was BANNED from the 7 Churches of Asia and Asia, from preaching.

All that is left for Paul is Europe and Africa, and he didn't do much other than write those letters.

Fortunately for him the Romans stepped in for Paul and rescued him from the Jews, literally in Acts, figuratively by wiping out the original Apostolic Jewish Churches and promoting Paul over the apostles until even Jesus was less important as a teacher and really a mere human sacrifice with benefits of eternal paradise for believing it's true that he died for your sins. Although he says it was for his friends:

He never says his death was a pass to heaven for merely believing it is a pass to heaven, or that he died for your sins.

He taught things that aren't complicated yet people misunderstand them or just don't understand them and rely on pastors who relie on centuries of Pauline philosophy that says unless you do as we say, you are going to hell.

If you believe that baptisms are necessary for forgiveness as Jesus said, many Christians fault you as a "bapismal regenerationist" because baptism is a work, and only faith can "save" you.

Yet some of them still baptise because it's fundamental, which should be unnecessary if faith alone was sufficient for justification, probably because initiation is a way to control the mind.

Other's don't baptise at all forgoing the blessings of the Spirit because heaven is a gift for them for thinking the blood of Jesus has paid their sin debt, i.e. we don't have to do anything because we are saved by faith.

This theology was ridiculed in the Testimony of Truth

a reply to: ChesterJohn

In the last two posts I was being civil, loving, abase and gentle as I could.

Oky doke....let's see Chester's "gentle"....

I can make a judgement by all that you have said, You are lost as a turnip in a potato truck.

Ha...but you didn't say ""bullcrap" or "crap" or even any other "bad words". You just talked to me in just the same condescending tone that you refute in me.

As far a baptizing babies you are mixing up true Christianity which would only baptize an adult or one who understands their salvation and wants to identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, with the Roman Catholicism and its subsidiaries that came out of it in the supposed reformation that continue that blasphemous practice.

Actually, the babies weren't being baptized...they were being "dedicated to the Lord". You have a problem with that?
I don't, cause I did it with all 4 of mine. You know what I have a problem with? The hypocrisy of Christianity in general.
Famous Christian musicians becoming pastors of mega churches and using that fame and fortune to build churches to entertain the "elite" in their communities. Probably some of the same music you listen to on your Christian radio station in your area.

Another judgement I make, of which I as a free will person can make, by your rantings and blathering sputter, you are as confused and a cow in a tornado when it comes to the church and the true church.

Yes, you are certaintly allowed to make it, Chester. However, what did your SAVIOR say about that??

Matthew 7:1-5 ESV
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


John 7:24 ESV
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”


Luke 6:37 ESV
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

There is no need for me to challenge you to study the Bible you have already made up your mind what to believe and who to listen to and it is not God, nor Jesus Christ, nor the Holy Ghost. It is your own will worship of self and what you want and desire that God's word opposes or denies you of.

And you know me so well, and all of my life experiences, and all that I have been through, to make that accusation?
Are you judging me again, Chester?

You have made your bed now lay on it.

I am. It's much more comfortable than your religiosity.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

If a turnip is lost in a potato truck?

Does it know where it is when on the turnip truck?

So a turnip is only lost if someone can't find it and needs it, otherwise it's just on the wrong truck, misplaced by someone else.

Are you saying M.Survivor is in the lost or in wrong world because God misplaced M.S.?

That is the only scenario in which your "lost as a turnip on a potato truck" attempt at metaphor makes any sense.

In which case your idea of God is funny.

Disagreeing with you is not something you can tolerate is it?

I await your response.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Regarding Paul and slavery, the lifeblood of the Roman Empire, he told slaves not to treat their masters like humans but like God and Jesus.

Blasphemy!!! In the Bible, ordered by Paul.

I wonder if he owned or was friendly with owners of slaves, then I remember he definitely must have as a Roman citizen. He is saved by Rome in Acts and vanished afterwards.

Paul enjoyed a cozy relationship with the Romans to the point he was confident that Nero would exonerate him.

And for all we know he was right.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

Back to the 12 apostles.

I would like to state that reciting the definition of a word is not an argument for the existence of more of something than exist, even if the word is not exclusive to Christianity within Christianity there are 12 apostles.

It's definition is irrelevant to the total amount in Christ's movement, 12.

Words have definitions, we all know that.

What dissapointed me was that is the typical dodge maneuver Christians use when asked how Paul could be an apostle with the 12 spots taken.

"Apostle means...Duh uh..."

And? Does the definition of tribe mean Israel had 50 tribes?

It doesn't.

Thanks Coomba, I am tired of being an intellectual bully and you can't progress beyond wikipedia quotes and the dictionary.

I am going to have to go repent real quick, I can't tolerate asininity.

Sorry I belittled you Roomba.

I will tone down my intellect so you don't get sad.

Heh.

You should have mentioned the fact he used the Mormon "apostles" as a way of proving that there can be more than 12.

Arguing against the 12 apostle limit is pointless as the Bible confirms it several times and it was done to honor the 12 tribes, 13 dishonors that.

Paul was self proclaimed by even Biblical standards, and not an apostle of Jesus but one who of "those who say they are apostles, but are not." found to be liars in an Asian Church.

"This you know, all those who are in Asia have turned from [rejected] me!"

That's more proof of Paul's rejection by the apostles.

No reason supplied was good, but using the Mormons is worth pointing out.

Mormons!

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 14:34King James Version (KJV)

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Hey Chester...You wanna tell me exactly WHICH LAW Paul was referring to?? Just curious.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Keep this is mind, there are 3 types of context you need to keep in mind when studying so you can rightly divide the word of truth, First, Historical, Second, Doctrinal and Third, Spiritual.

Bullcrap. That's the way people who have been to "seminary" talk...or let me say "cemetery". You don't need any of that if you truly have been filled with the Spirit of TRUTH.....which is NOT the "Holy Ghost".

And your misunderstanding that slaves and servants are no longer Different when it comes to faith in Christ, and the fact we have not slaves and masters today as much as we have employer and employee relationships.

Calling "Bullcrap" again. Do you want to be a slave, Chester? What if you were a black man in the era that slaves were used as commodities? Hmmmm.....what if you were beaten and abused and treated like dirt? Would you kiss your masters feet and say, "Oh, thank you Jesus"? You are so full of it, I don't know how to get through to you anymore.

When it came to the teachings of Paul and Jesus both gave women their do when necessary, things are always to be done decently and in order. So the order is what you do not like especially the gender order which starts in Genesis and goes all the way to Revelation. You need to take that up with God.

Oh...I have and I will continue to do so. You see...I don't see YHWH as a benevolent "god". He was a misogynistic jerk just as Paul was. You need order don't you? Order in what? Order in your wife being submissive to you?? Order in MEN ruling everything? Yea, that's what I thought. Must be quite comfy for you there, Chester. Good thing you're not female...you might have a different opinion.

Don't drag me into your problems you have with God's word. If you would study the way the Bible says too instead of your biased and prejudiced (meaning already having a point of view and not caring to hear the truth) methods, you might just understand.

I didn't drag you into anything. You just like to argue. 90 plus pages of arguing. WHO do you think you are defending? GOD? Or is it your male ego? Me thinks it's the latter.
I think you have no leg to stand on but to constantly repeat yourself and also tell me I need to study the Bible. Which, makes me realize you don't actually pay attention. Cause I've studied it ad nauseum...and after believing just as you...AND being as fundamentalist as YOU are to others, have come to my OWN conclusions due to studying and actually being brave enough to question just what it was I held so dearly to....that didn't add up. You're still stuck where I was at 5 years ago. It's very liberating to be "out of the box" of religion and doctrine, Chester. A whole new world opens up to you. Oh, and you truly learn to love all those that Jesus said to.

and what Jesus meant that by faith sins are forgiven

You might want to go back and review what Jesus taught about sins being forgiven....it's definitely not "grace".

So excepting death and refusing eternal life is thinking outside of a box when concerning reality? I hate you had the experiences that you did, I truly do. It's just that now here's where this leaves the point....going from hoping that it is true to hoping that it's false but prepared to say "well, how would I have known"? If you came from this "religious" background the evidence would be as follows: not only telling Chester what's written but why was it stated that way...otherwise the text is clearly known by the reader but the intention is not....

a reply to: auto3000

You may be missing something.

Paul not only endorsed slavery but wrote that a slave should treat his master like he was God or Jesus.

How can anyone live with this man being considered a prophet?

A rather disgusting and subversive fellow when it comes down to it, downright devious at times. Not in an intelligent way but with devious intent to decieve.

It only takes an unbiased or honest reading of the New Testament to see Paul is a misfit, an add on and heretic extraordinare who became Orthodox long after death.

His heretical Christianity was combined with the real Jewish Nazarene faction and Peter and Paul were forced to reconcile their differences, albeit post mortem.

Enter...Acts. Exit... the importance of the apostles and James. Honored but not based on scripture save the general epistles that display an anti Pauline attitude at times especially James and John but Peter too.

Paul's rambling letters make up a disproportionate amount of the New Testament and change everything Jesus said to less important than his death, claiming for no reason that Jesus was a human sacrifice that washed away the sins of mankind.

Well, Pauline Christian mankind anyway.

How fair.

I would much rather understand the meaning of the Gospels than take a chance that Paul was lying about his supernatural communications that taught a (plan b?)new gospel through him exclusively with no corroborated testimony of an eye witness to these communications or any reason at all to believe him.

I think it is safe to say Paul...was full of shiite.

a reply to: auto3000

So excepting death and refusing eternal life is thinking outside of a box when concerning reality

Who's reality? The fundamental "reality" that Paul was a true apostle? First off, I have not rejected Jesus...only Paul.
How has that made me refusing eternal life? What I HAVE done is questioned a BOOK'S "infallibility" and "inerrancy" and found that it is neither. Does it have truth in it? Sure.
Jesus claimed to BE the "way, the truth and the life". I see those words of His much deeper now, especially with what I've discovered these past few years.
So, let me ask you....what the heck do I or anyone else need Paul for? Especially considering the horrific things done throughout the centuries in the name of "Christianity", not to mention the divided mess we see of "Pauline churches" today. There are many Pauline scriptures that have been used to justify those horrific things. Do some study on history, such as the justification for the Inquisition, or when white men kept black men as slaves, or what was done to the Native Americans.

It's just that now here's where this leaves the point....going from hoping that it is true to hoping that it's false but prepared to say "well, how would I have known"? If you came from this "religious" background the evidence would be as follows: not only telling Chester what's written but why was it stated that way...otherwise the text is clearly known by the reader but the intention is not....

Not sure what you mean there.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

The truest thing in the Bible is the location of the crucifixion, the place of the skull.

Golgotha, or place of the skull, refers to the mind, and the place of it is in the mind.

Where all this death and resurrection philosophy means something and isn't just a fairy tail.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

You by your own heart are the one who adds emotions to any of my posts, seeing you do not know my heart, you are not seeing me face to face, you have not body language or any intonation of speech so any emotional i.e. condescending tone is given by your mind. Try reading it with a loving tone, as I try to do yours but can't get one sentence in seeing your hatred of Jesus' ransom for your soul and the holy words of God.

I am done arguing I have shown through out this thread the error of not rightly dividing the word of truth, and in adding to the word and improperly adding scriptures together to create a blasphemous error. You lady Matrix, would do good just to go back through all of my posts especially those that deal with the word of God and the error you , Molocchino and SethTsaddik, who was also earlier on known under the ATS user account name LucianusXVII, laid forth against Paul.

No matter what anyone said, in the video or your own privately interpreted false doctrines using the word of God. I came into this thread to defend Jesus Christ choice of Paul and his use of him to further expand on his doctrines for the church today. I tried as meekly as I could to show all of you that you were wrong. I was attacked, cursed at and treated shamefully by you all. I can only pray and hope that you come to repentance of this thy folly

2Tim 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Please note you all are not opposing me as you all are opposing yourselves.