Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Try quoting some scriptures in context to prove I am wrong.

Again all you give is opinions.

originally posted by: Akragon
Can we get back to the topic of the thread and stop going after each other here?

We are all members of the same forum... disagreements be damned...

its about discussion of the topic... not the people participating in...

Sigh

I don't believe I ever left it, don't read messages from people who do what you are asking to stop doing.

Have ignored every negative message, although I do know who the one culprit is.

Maybe you should address said offender personally and not the whole thread, or don't, either way you know who the culprit is and not personally addressing that person is kind of timid on your part.

Because other than said culprit this has been a great thread, heated debates yes, but very on topic until Mr Troll showed up.

I believe, after reviewing all information, it has been proven that Paul and Christianity are not the religion of Jesus, but of "Paul."

Who had no influence until Marcion "found" ten epistles and made a competing religion, popular amongst Romans and Greeks, that survived for centuries and forced the Romans to adopt the fake epistles of the fake apostle, who didn't even exist historically in the first century and not until after the writings of J. Martyr.

Back on topic bro, let's see if it lasts.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Try quoting some scriptures in context to prove I am wrong.

Again all you give is opinions.

If I cared about what you thought I might, but I already know that the Bible will verify everything I said and don't have to quote what is common knowledge.

originally posted by: JerryMH

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
a reply to: JerryMH

I am more amazed by the day at how many people have woke up to the plain truth that Paul was or whoever is behind his writings (I put my money, all of it, on Marcion) was in fact the enemy of James and Peter especially but the whole movement of Jesus until he wrote his last word.

He didn't even hide it, called them false apostles who resemble Satan masquerading as an an angel of light and had derogatory terms for them like ''circumcision faction" and "Judaizers" while James response to Pauline faith only soteriology was:

"Do you want to be shown, you senseless man, faith without works is dead"?

James speaks of the dangers of the tongue, two kinds of wisdom, of friendship with the world and says about faith ''Even the demons believe --and shudder." immediately before my last quote.

The general epistles are indeed thinly veiled anti Pauline theology polemics that got past the relatively unlettered Church fathers and made the Canon, as did heaps of hints that Paul is not what he claims or the churches claim and actually represents one faction of an early religion with Acts as the bridge attempting to connect the two historically opposed factions.

The Gospels are all from distinct sects and not one and heavily redacted and interpolated writings, Matthew comes from the Ebionites though it didn't have a virgin birth, had the Holy Spirit as Jesus Mother and Jesus only the adopted Son of God at baptism.

Mark is somewhat docetic and I suspect of Marcionite origin rather than Luke, I do not think that the author of Acts, if the same author as Luke or not, was sympathetic to Paul's theology but hid it by being very subtle and the Gospel of Luke is from an unknown source like the other all anonymous Gospels but I think it was a Greek or Roman for sure, which Luke was if not Syrian (I'm not sure actually) and educated enough to make errors on purpose to draw attention to the fact that Paul and the Jews, including Nazarenes, were enemies and the Jews who took a vow to not eat until Paul was dead were probably both Pharisees and Nazarenes as according to the Gospel Hebrew Matthew and the Clementine Homilies, Acts too, they were friends.

That was likely the most significant interpolation, that the Pharisees were so evil, because Rome was pretty anti Semitic.

It's all the answer to the question; "Why isn't the Catholic or Christian Church full of Jews if it started as a Jewish religion?"

Paul was the catalyst for anti Semitism in the Roman Empire with his heavily anti Semitic writings.

I believe in God Most High, call Him Father or Allah, but I can't stretch my imagination to the point of believing that Jesus is God. He never made that claim, he denied it. "My God and your God." was spoken by Jesus, and God doesn't have a God, just Jesus, who denied being good as "Only God is good" in a stern rebuke.

I marvel at the level of liar one must rise to in order to teach Jesus is God when he himself denied it in the New Testament several times. Either that or you must not be well acquainted with the Bible, because it's a messed up book. It actually doesn't teach much of what the churches teach at all and actually distorts Judaism and itself.

I think it is more about socializing or guilt than seeking truth or Jesus the Nazarene.

That's right on IMO. I totally agree Jesus was not god nor claimed it. His relationship is unique but Christianity has been built on that lie and a few key others. IMO the cornerstone was rejected which is the Humanity of Jesus. The Bible is the most worshipped idol today responsible for authorizing countless atrocities.
The whole thing needs to be torn down. Even the concept of 'saved' through believing with all the usual rituals is wrong IMO
But I'm drifting way off topic. Appreciate you chiming in here.

Here, here.

I must admit to me the New Testament is akin to the alleged ritual where you are asked to spit on the cross and either a refusal to, or obedience, determines status, eit will be told to be the right choice, but only one response will secure your future in the sect.

When you finish the New Testament, if you are good at reading, you will inevitably be left with two choices. Do you follow the teachings of the Messiah or the teachings of the enemy of the Messiah?

You can't do both, it's not possible. And the tree that bears rotten fruit is the teachings based on the Pauline epistles. And what rotten fruit it still produces.

On the flip side the Jesus, James and the 12 apostles followers who reject Paul are usually very tolerant and enlightened people.

Something about Pauline Christianity turns people into a ''If you don't believe Jesus is Lord and Savior you will burn in hell" mentality. It's not enough to worship the one God and honor Jesus as Messiah, as the Gospels says and not God, you have to believe in Paul's personal theology, (or his pseudepigraphers).

And that is part of why I am Muslim, a wonderful religion that was not always hated by Christianity and Judaism like today, Sufism and the Arab resurrection of neo Platonism contributed heavily to Kabbalah and the Zohar, Catholicism once had a peaceful relationship with Islam because of the Qur'an and it's high esteem for the Virgin Mary.

Before the Crusades the Jews, Christians and Muslims... even the Mandaeans, all lived in harmony, in Palestine.

We all know the end of this story, every non Christian man, woman and child was put to death in Jerusalem.

I just wish everyone could be comfortable believing what they feel is right without condemning the rest of the world for believing something slightly different.

I wish Islam wasn't demonized for the actions of a minority that came to power after the chaos of the war in Iraq, what did the government think would happen after taking out Saddam, being welcomed as liberators only to screw it all up with senseless acts of violence.

Truth be told, as evil as ISIS is, it's a reaction to a war started by us, using phony intelligence that was proven phony before the invasion but ignored and avenged even (see: Valerie Plame).

We have killed more people, civilians even, with drone strikes, than ISIS ever will.

Progressive Rabbis have been known to admire Jesus as a man and Islam as a legitimate Monotheistic faith that worships the true God, I do not see it often, but with Christianity I never see it, except oddly by the Catholic Church and Vatican ii.

If you remove the Pauline epistles from the New Testament, understand Son of God as a metaphor as we are all sons and daughters, you have Islam, who like the Sethians believe Christ did a body switch and laughed at the fools who thought he was crucified.

ATTN: Chestrejon

If ''Brother of the Lord" for James is a metaphor and Jesus and James weren't brothers, ''Son of God" is too.

After all, the Virgin Birth is an interpolation and the Gospel of the Hebrews (original Matthew) did not have it, and his ''Mother" was the Holy Spirit, who descended at baptism and made him the "Son" of God then. The Holy Spirit did descend at baptism, as always. [Stop: Chester]



Syria is currently being demolished by a most likely proxy civil war, with US and Russian involvement, and nobody ever talks about the Muslims who are fighting against ISIS, just ISIS.

Salaam, Shalom, Peace and blessings.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Hey friend....just wanted to say, I'm sorry for saying "Shut up" to you know who. It wasn't right how he spoke to you...and then me.... I should have just ignored him, but I did not appreciate how he was trying to degrade you. Anyway , back to ignoring him. Keep going, bro....you are doing an outstanding job.

Thanks, I do appreciate it.

I actually have no clue what was said as I really did ignore everything. But it's nice to know you had my back.

If it makes you feel better I am not degraded, even if I had read the comments I still would never let some tool on the internet hurt my feelings.

Basically whoever that is degraded thier self.

😉

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Common knowledge is not Bible knowledge

ok here is the verses in question that you say is the brother of Jesus .

1) You will notice no where in the immediate context does it say James is the brother of Jesus

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Acts 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

Acts 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

Acts 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

Acts 15:33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

Acts 15:34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

Acts 15:35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

Acts 15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.

Acts 15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

Acts 15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

Acts 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

Acts 15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.

Acts 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

2) here is acts 1 where two James re mentioned but the brothers of Jesus are not named..

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

3) Here is where Paul says he met with James brother of Jesus, but still does not prove the James of Acts 15 is the brother of Jesus.

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

I submit that it is more than likely James the son of Alpheus seeing the brother of Jesus was not a follower until after the resurrection.

And your further nonsense about Biblical things without any Bible shows you know nothing f the words of God

edit on 12-12-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Common knowledge is Biblical knowledge, knowledge is knowledge, and the Bible says James is the Lord's brother.

Think whatever you want, it's of no consequence to me.

End of story.

a reply to: SethTsaddikIt only says it in two places once in the gospel writing and once in Galatian.

But no where in Acts 15 as plain as the nose on your ace does it say that the James who is speaking is the brother of Jesus. There are three James who are not the brother of Jesus but you ignore them.

This is why I tire of such foolish nonsense because you all say something that is not true and claim it is in the Bible without showing the verse or believing the bible to begin with.

You are wrong the word of Gods correct.

Common knowledge is things like putting air in your tires, or gravity. Bible knowledge is knowledge of the bible something you lack obviously as you cannot produce one verse that proves beyond a showdown of a doubt that the James in Acts 15 is the brother of Jesus when it could just as well be James son of Alpheus.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddikIt only says it in two places once in the gospel writing and once in Galatian.

Pretty sure twice is enough, it says it, that's a fact.

But no where in Acts 15 as plain as the nose on your ace does it say that the James who is speaking is the brother of Jesus. There are three James who are not the brother of Jesus but you ignore them.

Gee, I'm sorry you lack the logic to figure this one out. I am not ignoring anyone, but James the Just is the one that is his brother.

This is why I tire of such foolish nonsense because you all say something that is not true and claim it is in the Bible without showing the verse or believing the bible to begin with.

You tire of foolish nonsense because you are consistently a nonsensical fool. If I quote the Bible, a sentence or a full chapter, you will just say "out of context" because you actually don't know very much about the Bible or Christianity.

You are wrong the word of Gods correct.

Common knowledge is things like putting air in your tires, or gravity. Bible knowledge is knowledge of the bible something you lack obviously as you cannot produce one verse that proves beyond a showdown of a doubt that the James in Acts 15 is the brother of Jesus when it could just as well be James son of Alpheus.

I believe I already told you I am not concerned with your illogical conclusions and repetitive rhetoric. You are what is called a fanatic, and you don't care about anything that doesn't agree with you.

But you are literally powerless to do anything about it, I will continue, as is obvious from simply reading the Bible, to recognize that James the Just was the brother of Jesus. I think you need a lesson in scholarship because this James has always been the brother of Jesus, although Catholicism says foster brother and Eastern Orthodoxy and every Christian Church say half brother because they don't assume perpetual virginity.

I am going to have to end this off topic and ridiculous conversation as you have no sense, common or otherwise, and just don't like James.

Because you are not a disciple of the Way but a Pauline robot.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Even the historian Josephus mentions it, interpolation or not, it's in the historical record that the traditional Biblical brother of Jesus was James the Just.

Not really much you can do but say people are wrong without proof, being you know nothing of facts.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Did you know Jesus was actually a Muslim?

a reply to: SethTsaddik

I showed you what the Bible says and it does not say that James in act 15 is in fact James the brother of Jesus, and it very well could be James the son of Alpheus aslo know as James the Less.

Just because there are two places in scriptures that ay there is a brother of Jesus named James does not make the James in Acts 15 the brother of Jesus. As I showed you by scriptures there is no mention of it in the immediate context or the context as whole it is an assumption that has no scriptural proof. It could be but it could also be James the son of Alpheus who was an actual Apostle during Christ Earthly Ministry. Context is very important study without context leads to error.

I don't put trust in men like Josephus because he was not a saved man. I don't trust anything outside the preserved word of God.

There was no such thing as a Muslim I the sense of an Islamic, at the time of Christ.

If you are trying to be smart and say he is one who is submitted to God that is true but that does not make one a Muslim it could just make him a man who follows after God.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The Bible is clear that Jesus had brothers, whether biological or step is the debate, not which James, because the brother of the Lord, according to Paul, was James the Just, leader of Jerusalem.

The only debate is if they are half brothers or step.

Jesus had a brother named James according to the New Testament, fact.

James the Just, brother of the Lord, was the leader of Jerusalem.

You can't disprove that James the Just was Jesus brother, you just don't want it to be true so you tell yourself what you want to hear.

And Paul confirms it.

Yes, you quoted the Bible.

No, you did not show anyone anything relevant.

Keep wasting your time, I honestly don't care about your James fetish.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

I showed you what the Bible says and it does not say that James in act 15 is in fact James the brother of Jesus, and it very well could be James the son of Alpheus aslo know as James the Less.

Just because there are two places in scriptures that ay there is a brother of Jesus named James does not make the James in Acts 15 the brother of Jesus. As I showed you by scriptures there is no mention of it in the immediate context or the context as whole it is an assumption that has no scriptural proof. It could be but it could also be James the son of Alpheus who was an actual Apostle during Christ Earthly Ministry. Context is very important study without context leads to error.

I don't put trust in men like Josephus because he was not a saved man. I don't trust anything outside the preserved word of God.

There was no such thing as a Muslim I the sense of an Islamic, at the time of Christ.

If you are trying to be smart and say he is one who is submitted to God that is true but that does not make one a Muslim it could just make him a man who follows after God.

He was still a Muslim, he did the will of Allah.

Muslim. He submitted to the will of Allah, the definition of Islam.

It didn't have to exist as an official religion, we accept him as a Muslim.

One thing is for sure, Jesus was not a Christian and didn't teach Paul anything as they never met and Paul's Christianity has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus was a Muslim before Islam existed, because he did the will of Allah.

It's not a coincidence that Paul's teachings are nothing like Jesus' teachings.

Despite pretending to have secret revelations, which Jesus said not to believe if anyone claimed, Paul didn't actually talk to the ascended Jesus.

There is literally no reason to believe Paul if his teachings don't match what Jesus taught, are actually anathema to.

Liar. That's what Paul was and clergy are today. And many to most ''saved" Christians.

Padawans.. did one of you try and log into my Facebook?

You do know that is a crime dont you?

Master Coomba

a reply to: coomba98

This is Gnosisisfaith all the trade marks in his posts and admits to be Muslim.

as a word meaning god allah fits.

But when you compare the person Allah and God, the lord Almighty, Jesus Christ they are two different people.

There are many gods but the god of fortresses/war is truly Allah.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

All of Paul's teachings are expansions on what Jesus taught in the four Gospel books of Matthew Mark, Luke and John, the only exception is Sabbath observance and the Kingdom preparation teachings for Israel. Anyone who want to take an AV Bible (the only Bible with all the verses in it) and go through it over and over listing out all that Jesus taught and you will find Paul taught much of the same things but with more explanation. It was necessary for Jesus to give expansions of his teachings seeing he was not coming back right away. If you studied just the Bible with the Bible as the Holy Ghost does and teaches then you would see it. You are willfully ignorant and blind to the truth of God's Holy words.

I listed out part of it in an earlier post but you did not even search the scriptures to see if what I said was true. Because if you did or anyone else did, you would find in fact that I am correct.

Anyone who denies Paul's legitimacy is is fact committing the unpardonable sin of Blaspheming the Holy Ghost because it was he who chose to send Paul. For he is the one who called Paul and seeing John says that the father, the Word(Jesus Christ) and the Holy Ghost are one then it is literally Jesus who called Paul. The the book of Acts if factually true and all Paul's letters are in fact God inspired and are for doctrine to live until Jesus Returns.

Acts 13:2-4 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come]/b].

Anyone who says Paul is a liar and rejects the book of Acts and all of Paul's letters is in fact rejecting that which the Holy Ghost has done and blasphemies against the Holy Ghost.

Chester.. that really grieves me. What shame you bring in Jesus name, so quick to judge and condemn. Please think of what you are saying and are. Says you'd know them by their love. You are so far from Him. This is why religions need to be torn down.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yes if i were to put money on it i would say it was Gnosisfaith who is now Padawan SethTsaddik.

Dont think Padawan #2 would do something like that and dont know Padawan #3 that well yet.

First time my facebook had an attempted hack on it.

Anyway got nothing to really say about Paul and Christianity so in honor of Goodman Akragons request ill not reply on this thread.

Coomba98