College is a scam! DON"T MISS

a reply to: Bedlam

Sorry but having only just come out of university (2 years ago) I can tell you that 90% of what you learn is all self taught, the other 10% where the money goes is paying tutors to give you guidance on what you should be learning.

I learned more by myself off the internet and reading books than I did in lectures and practical classes with upwards of 200 students

£3,000 a year to teach myself and I was lucky I got in before the government raised the fees 3 to 4 times that amount

For a total of £9,000 I probably got about 2 days total of talking to the teachers

But yeah, University is totally worth the money to teach yourself....

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: pl3bscheese

You will probably disagree with me, but until you have learned a field on your own and then gone for the degree, you have no reference to go by to judge the value of the degree.

TheRedneck

I agree and disagree.

I agree that many people need to learn a system outside their own in order to best pursue their interests. Not all do. There's plenty of exceptions littered throughout history which prove that while true for you and many more, not applicable for all.

The problem with applying your words to my own life, is that no one degree would suffice. Heck, a half dozen would't get me where I need to go.

I am an entrepreneur at heart, and that role requires wearing many hats. I'm equally interested in mad-scientist creations as I am appreciating the arts, and ultimately would like to help through applying my love of creation.

So let's add it up... business, marketing, computer science, engineering, physics, finances... and none of this really grasps what I ultimately require to fulfill the role within a single human being. It requires repeat failure, and constant growth from experience. The only way I'll ever meet my goals is by leaning on people smarter than I in specific interests. All of my interests, I need not master myself, I need only surround myself around masters.

Seeing this path, and what it takes to get there, you don't learn in school. School would do me little good.

Oh, and as a side note. I have self-learned and then tried college for the interest. The material is dated, the approach is very inefficient, and the lack of forward thinking and big picture perspective in applying the lessons always have me leaving. There's just no way the schooling can keep up with my self-learning. This certainly isn't true for all paths, but it is for the one's I've looked into.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

So let's add it up... business, marketing, computer science, engineering, physics, finances... and none of this really grasps what I ultimately require to fulfill the role within a single human being. It requires repeat failure, and constant growth from experience. The only way I'll ever meet my goals is by leaning on people smarter than I in specific interests. All of my interests, I need not master myself, I need only surround myself around masters.

I absolutely agree.

No one person can do it all. I am an engineer, but I also know something about accounting, finances, mechanics, carpentry, physics, drafting... but I am not an expert in these. If I need to handle financing, I will seek out an advisor who is an expert. That is the heart of entrepreneurship: forming your team to accomplish your goals.

College is probably helpful, but not required IMO for such a path. My path required the degree.

Oh, and as a side note. I have self-learned and then tried college for the interest. The material is dated, the approach is very inefficient, and the lack of forward thinking and big picture perspective in applying the lessons always have me leaving. There's just no way the schooling can keep up with my self-learning. This certainly isn't true for all paths, but it is for the one's I've looked into.

Then you went to the wrong college.

UAH (my school) not only has professors who are well-informed about the latest technologies, the same professors are required to do research. Most have published multiple papers, quite a few have authored books on their areas of research, and several actually use their own books for texts. The school has support programs for student research and development and works closely with private R&D companies. The labs have the latest equipment and are thorough, covering everything from the basics to the latest breakthroughs.

I am tempted to work with them on some of my private projects... and may well do so in the future.

I am sure there are plenty of schools out there which are exactly like what you describe, but there are also those who are not. Not all Universities are created equal. The trick is to seek out the ones that are not, and that specialize in your field. The conditions I describe at UAH may not be applicable in, say, the art department; I was speaking of the engineering department.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Darkmadness
I needed to share this video because this young man is on point and incredibly articulate.

You're going to need to be more descriptive. "WATCH THIS VIDEO" and then giving a link to a 12 minute video isn't good enough, I gave it 45 seconds and it still hadn't even gotten to any real point. What about college is a scam? Why is it a scam?

What in your own words is wrong with college?

originally posted by: TheRedneck

UAH (my school) not only has professors who are well-informed about the latest technologies, the same professors are required to do research. Most have published multiple papers, quite a few have authored books on their areas of research, and several actually use their own books for texts. The school has support programs for student research and development and works closely with private R&D companies. The labs have the latest equipment and are thorough, covering everything from the basics to the latest breakthroughs.

Here, here! Got my masters in physics there. UAH and Georgia Tech are excellent schools for science and engineering.

Ok, read the thread now... still haven't watched the video though.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: Elton

He says college is scam and that people shouldn't be going into debt and he criticizes the entire education system.

He says he can learn faster on the internet he said he was years ahead of other students with home schooling says his graduate friends are 40,000 in debt and waiting tables.

There's a lot to criticize with the education system. I'm approaching 400 semester credit hours on my transcript so there's quite a bit I can say about it. The biggest complaint I have is actually with the English related gen ed's. The writing classes don't do their job in teaching people how to write, and the worst of all are classes like debate and speech which train people to recognize fallacies and dismiss an opposing argument as a replacement for properly arguing their own point.

originally posted by: Elton
I don't disagree! I have a degree in science and am back in school for computer science and sadly I must be too motivated as I am way ahead in my classes and have started doing online learning when I have free time.

One professor teaches 7 classes, he's a great guy, but he's stretched too thin to be a great educator.

That said, I would like the degree and certifications simply because they will open doors in my (new) career.

Like anything CS varies a lot by where you learn it. Some schools are heavy into theory and you can go through an entire CS program without having ever written a single line of code. Others are closer to software engineering and have you write a lot of programs. Don't worry about certifications in CS though, there's not a single software certification out there that means anything.

When it comes to teaching, you can judge a school by how many classes the professors are teaching. Red flags over the program should go up if your professors are teaching over 6 classes, and a healthier amount is 4 for a full time professor. If they're an adjunct or otherwise part time, they should be less. I've found this to be pretty easy information to get, since almost everyone posts a schedule on their door showing office hours. So you can easily see when they're in class.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
College educated apprentice vs non college educated apprentice

Let's see if a degree is a good indicator of future performance or if there is no real correlation between getting an education and performance.

There's a correlation on average, I suspect that's because degrees get you hired. As far as I've been able to tell though being self taught (if you learned the right things) is no different from being university educated other than you have less opportunity, which will lower the wages and professional experience you get on average. Anyone who breaks in though performs in the same range.

originally posted by: Bedlam
The employee who thinks they can learn what they need from Youtube or they're super smarter than everyone and don't need to learn the field they're going to take up isn't one I want. A lot of people who don't want to put in the effort it takes to learn this stuff have a lot of yap yap yap about how they don't need to. Here's the hint - you're lazy, or you're Albert Einstein. And I'm betting you're not Al.

I just spent my weekend bailing out a friend of mine who did this very thing. Thought he could sell a really ambitious project to his employer, and that he would be able to cobble it together from youtube videos and prewritten code. Ended up heading to his place for the weekend and building the project for him. The best part of all was how humble he was about it (made the whole thing worth it), after having listened to him for the past several years that all the stuff I've bothered learning can be replaced with youtube and stackoverflow.

originally posted by: rickymouse
The guy is right about the whole thing. Some jobs require an education but most don't. What happened to going to work at a job and working your way up the ladder, getting paid while you learned. Then you apply for a better job and get paid more as you gain experience. After four years you are getting a good wage and benefits. Beats going into debt and then going to work at subway.

Employers realized it's more effective to make the person cover their own education, and then hire them once they've learned. You still get hired at entry level and work your way up... you just have to be better informed at entry level, and the company doesn't have as much overhead in training. No one in their right mind these days outside of the military is ever going to pay you to learn something on a regular basis because it's bad business, but occasionally a company might look at using a new technology... if you're working with tech you might learn something new then (but then it's a crap shoot if that tech pans out or is viable to your business).

originally posted by: Bedlam
There are some people who can teach themselves new subjects. But a lot of people have to have someone do it with them, and engineering pre reqs are not the sorts of things most people can do online.

In some schools you teach yourself, the role of the professor isn't to teach you it's to answer questions when you get stuck. For example, last year I had a very unhelpful professor in a class where we built an operating system. One of our assignments was deriving printf and writing our own after being given nothing more than the high level theory on how to go about it (and as academic policy, we're forbidden from googling... though not everyone is honest about that). I hate those types of assignments/professors but I've learned that that's how CS gets taught around here. High level concepts followed by writing your own implementations of it. In a lot of ways that feels similar to just teaching yourself.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
Many programmers and coders, talented ones are self taught.

Almost all of the good ones were taught by others. It's pretty easy to pick up some basics of programming, but a lot of the time you don't know what you're doing wrong until someone more experienced comes along and shows you a better way of doing something. That's where college is phenomenal. When self teaching, you know a problem and you can research how to solve that problem, but you don't know what you don't know about it.

For example, if you're doing computer graphics, and you need the angle of something you're almost certainly going to come across information that tells you to use your languages variation of math.cos, but having a real teacher you'll probably instead be instructed to set everything up in terms of length and vectors and instead use dot product which can be completed in 1 clock cycle rather than 230.

a reply to: Bedlam

I only had one course in physics there (Physics III with lab) taught by a doctoral grad student. He actually received his doctorate the same time I got my BSEE.

I have had some EE classes under Dr. B. (name withheld for privacy), though, who is a physicist and a Fellow with the American Physics Society. If he is any indication of the caliber of physics professors there, you have my sympathy! The man is literally smart enough to be scary. I made the mistake after class of asking him about his research. He started talking and deriving equations, and the next thing I knew his eyes had rolled back into his head, he was using his finger to write on an imaginary board, and was solving third- and fourth-order differential equations in his head.

I have never had a harder professor, and I don't think I have ever learned so much in a single class.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: Bedlam

So the only way possible for him to learn college algebra is by paying a university to have a teacher teach it to him?

Nah sorry, you over value your education and you seem perfectly happy with the system because it's served you well so you see no reason to change it.

However as you may have noticed many many others are not simulating your current experience which is why college debt is being talked about as a crisis and will have generations of influence on the earning power of the middle class.

If my roommate who never used Windows can get S1 with Aatrox in a year, I have confidence people can learn to use computers at least. He also now talks about Quantum Physics, seeing it on Rick and Morty.

Most people are just too preoccupied to properly educate themselves. Can they? Yeah. Some require analog level instruction though. Think of the issue more as formatting, someone who is good at learning would break down information and plan for themselves to learn certain material- This is the gap in their processing. They know they want to teach themselves, they can't find out how.

Google is an example of needing formatting to complete your tasks. Have you ever met someone with a problem Googling something, and it was purely because of their keyword choice? Possibly they don't even understand the aspect of keywords etc.? They know the tool they're trying to use is good, and know it's a good place to start, but they have no mechanical understanding of what they're doing.

Well, maybe the idea that everyone needs to go to college is a scam, or better put, a false concept, but the list of jobs where a college degree is required is a mile long. I could not have the job I have without my college education. All depends on what you want out of life.

a reply to: imjack

If my roommate who never used Windows can get S1 with Aatrox in a year, I have confidence people can learn to use computers at least. He also now talks about Quantum Physics, seeing it on Rick and Morty.

Millions of people use computers every day. They are designed to be as easy to use as possible. Learning to use a computer is a useful skill, but not a difficult one. The difficult part is designing microprocessors with more computing power or writing software that is more intuitive and powerful than what we presently have. No one is going to make a breakthrough in those fields without a degree.

Talking about Quantum Physics is not understanding Quantum Physics. No one truly understands the totality of that particular subject; if they did, we would know exactly what dark matter and dark energy are. We don't. But there are physicists, all with degrees, who understand enough to further our understanding. I seriously doubt anyone without a college background will be able to contribute much to that.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: rickymouse


There are two year college degrees for stuff like Mechanics and electrician training that are good, you can get a job easily if you do those and avoid the regular college. You do not need a degree to make good money in this country, there are lots of good paying jobs that do not require degrees. If you like the trades you can get work. Look how many jobs the hurricanes and tornadoes are creating.

I will agree with you on Mechanics.

but not electrician
in many states you have to get a state license or get a state journeyman card.
in calif you have to have a state electrician license.
and you have to have at least 6 years on the job training/apprenticeship before you can take the state license test.

originally posted by: ANNED

originally posted by: rickymouse


There are two year college degrees for stuff like Mechanics and electrician training that are good, you can get a job easily if you do those and avoid the regular college. You do not need a degree to make good money in this country, there are lots of good paying jobs that do not require degrees. If you like the trades you can get work. Look how many jobs the hurricanes and tornadoes are creating.

I will agree with you on Mechanics.

but not electrician
in many states you have to get a state license or get a state journeyman card.
in calif you have to have a state electrician license.
and you have to have at least 6 years on the job training/apprenticeship before you can take the state license test.

Yeah, I worked with my cousin, he was a master electrician and I had almost enough hours to get my journeyman's card. The Electrical inspector said I could take some classes he had to finish up to get my license qualification. My cousin would have assigned his master electrician license over to me and I could have taken wiring jobs. The problem was that there was no money trail, they changed the law, I would hire my cousin when building a house or doing remodeling and worked with him and the money trail actually went the wrong way. I am a residential builder. I never needed college for the stuff I learned, I would hire some of the best people in their trade and work with them. I liked to learn, what better way to learn than have tradesmen teach you when they were working for you. I guess you can say I did pay for the knowledge, or should I say the homeowner paid to have me learn.

You are definitely right, You do not need college to learn, you can actually get paid while you learn from experienced people. In the six years of apprenticeship for a journeyman card, you get paid and when you get done you are making pretty decent money.

a reply to: rickymouse

Did you really work with the best, or did you just work with the local talent? When people say the best, I think of say the top 3% of people out there with any given credential. Were those really the people you were working with and learning from? College professors statistically come from the top 3% of students. Not every one does of course, but most do. That seems like a better assurance that you're learning from the best than simply working with the local people that have positive reputations.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: rickymouse

Did you really work with the best, or did you just work with the local talent? When people say the best, I think of say the top 3% of people out there with any given credential. Were those really the people you were working with and learning from? College professors statistically come from the top 3% of students. Not every one does of course, but most do. That seems like a better assurance that you're learning from the best than simply working with the local people that have positive reputations.

Ha Ha. College professors smart? They may know some stuff but most I have known aren't really that intelligent. I knew a half dozen professors through my life, they were nice guys but definitely could use a little wisdom and maybe some wine or booze. Top three percent, He He. Dream on. They were chosen for their ability to teach, being able to teach others is something they can't teach in school, you have to have the right personality and outlook to start with to be a good teacher.

The mason I had was really good, a mason right from Italy who did tarazo floors and tile work. He was good and fast, I would put him in the top three percent in the country. He worked till he was almost eighty. I was very fussy at what I did, that was my curse and the reason I never got rich. I never had to advertise though and always had work. So I chose subs that were also very fussy and very good at what they did. I have known some backhoe operators that I would have allowed to comb my hair with a comb attached to their backhoes.

College does not have anything to do with being smart, I learned twenty times as much since I quit college than I learned before I quit college. That includes all of my high school and grade school.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Ha Ha. College professors smart? They may know some stuff but most I have known aren't really that intelligent.

Like I said, they're usually in the top 3% of students. That usually means they're very good at their field, and being in academia that's what they get to focus on. Most teachers don't really have a wide knowledge base from what I've found, unless they're a polymath.

I've been in college for awhile, and I have a very bad habit to feed my ego. I get into debates with my professors over things they say, and I argue with them. Most seem to enjoy it, but what I've found is that most usually have a very narrow frame of references which is their field. They can't mix multiple disciplines together. It doesn't mean they're not intelligent but rather that they have depth rather than breadth. I prefer the opposite, but in a world of specializations like we have today, depth is better.

I knew a half dozen professors through my life

I've known a few, and kept in touch with them after I was done with their classes. I've written software for one, proof read an advanced copy of a book for another. One was my roommate for awhile, and with another the roles have reversed and I'm now teaching him.

If I had to name one common trait between them all, it's that they learn extremely fast.

They were chosen for their ability to teach, being able to teach others is something they can't teach in school, you have to have the right personality and outlook to start with to be a good teacher.

Actually, if you've never tried it. Teaching others is the best way to challenge and improve your own knowledge of a subject.

College does not have anything to do with being smart, I learned twenty times as much since I quit college than I learned before I quit college. That includes all of my high school and grade school.

I agree that college has nothing to do with intelligence. It's about one thing really and that's effort. It's a place where you can put effort into learning simply for the sake of learning. Real world considerations like getting an ROI on that knowledge are lessened as much as possible. Let me give a real life example:

Last year I had a software development class, and started a side project in the class to build a robot. We broke into a few teams, and built something remote controllable, using a wifi enabled camera. We built a makeshift GPS system around the campus, and piloted it from node to node using the GPS, looking at where it was going with the camera (it had no arms, so this was useful for things like seeing when someone was next to an elevator, and playing an audio file asking them to take us to floor X). It was a totally useless project, but it expanded our knowledge. That's the type of thing college is for.

In the business world, that project would never happen because there's no financial incentive to do so.

With a hobbyist group, we wouldn't have had access to a large enough area to really play with the GPS pathing system and radio broadcasting equipment we built, nor would we have had access to professors to ask for help when we got stuck.

Not everything you learn in college is practical, and existing in the real world exposes you to more. It also limits your reactions more because concepts like time and money come into play with every decision.

a reply to: Aazadan

I took 22 classes on future learn in the last year, they are from European Colleges and the price is free. I don't need any certificates to prove I know things so they remain free. They do a pretty good job there. I would not want to go back to school to get a degree, I am already sixty, who needs another paper hanging on the wall. I'm probably going to take another twenty courses this winter. I tend to do medical courses, sooner or later they are going to run out, I already took three cancer courses. Every one of them had some different content in them that was worth learning, I got many more research links.

The important thing for a teacher is their ability to teach and have kids learn. I should throw in that they are required to condition kids to fit into society, it is part of their job.

a reply to: rickymouse

My cousin is a self taught software engineer who makes 5-6 million a year as the VP of a medical devices engineering firm.

Only things required, books, hard work and motivation.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: rickymouse

My cousin is a self taught software engineer who makes 5-6 million a year as the VP of a medical devices engineering firm.

Only things required, books, hard work and motivation.

When I was young, my father told me that there is nothing you can't do if you want to. You may need to learn and need to build or buy tools to do it but nothing is impossible. He also said to make sure that you really want to do it, so you won't regret it later.

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: Aazadan

I took 22 classes on future learn in the last year, they are from European Colleges and the price is free. I don't need any certificates to prove I know things so they remain free. They do a pretty good job there. I would not want to go back to school to get a degree, I am already sixty, who needs another paper hanging on the wall. I'm probably going to take another twenty courses this winter. I tend to do medical courses, sooner or later they are going to run out, I already took three cancer courses. Every one of them had some different content in them that was worth learning, I got many more research links.

The important thing for a teacher is their ability to teach and have kids learn. I should throw in that they are required to condition kids to fit into society, it is part of their job.

I'm not overly familiar with their model, but in looking at their website it looks like their courses are mostly in the 8-15 hour range, lets split the difference and average them at 12. The typical college class is 5 hours per week, plus homework (which I'll leave out because I don't know if future learn also gives you HW). For a standard 17 week semester that's 80 hours. Which would mean 8 future learn courses are about the same time spent on something as a single college course.

It's good to learn, but how are you certain that what you're learning is credible? Taking 22 classes in a year is roughly the same as taking 1 class at a college every semester. It's best you don't get the certificates they offer though, considering the time table on what they're teaching, they're not worth anything.

Edit: Looked into it more, what they're offering is similar in content to the electives that many people think need to be removed from colleges for cost reasons, yet they're also only superficially getting into the topics. I remain unconvinced.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: rickymouse

My cousin is a self taught software engineer who makes 5-6 million a year as the VP of a medical devices engineering firm.

Only things required, books, hard work and motivation.

And luck. Career trajectories rarely go from engineer to upper management. Those positions usually look for an MBA. You can go from engineer to middle management and become a senior developer or project engineer that sits in on the big meetings, but to go to a VP is extremely uncommon. While still uncommon CTO is a much more likely role to end up in.