College is a scam! DON"T MISS

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Please stop because by the way your posting it seems as if you have also come to the realization that if your going into business on your own than the methodology used to obtain the skill becomes less relevant as your able to tap into a need and offer a solution.

originally posted by: Darkmadness

I don't think your willing to give our ability to tap into a higher form of knowledge a proper chance.

You may not be able to accomplish this personally but many of US can, do and have.

Oh, please. "higher form of knowledge"?

No, no you haven't. Teaching yourself Python isn't quite the same as fields.

a reply to: Darkmadness

As in less than 1%, right? You can't honestly believe more than 1% of US population has the brains and willpower to teach their selves advanced physics.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Darkmadness
Let's also postulate as an employer what qualities I view as valuable and why.

Let me guess...a large amount of the things you do are basic relational databases and web work.

THAT is the sort of thing a tech can do. Webpage work is the lowest of the low.

I see, you want to prove how much more intelligent you are with your elitism because of your degree. Why? Because it's impossible for someone to teach themselves to a degree that they can be taught by an outsider.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Maybe they should apply to a trade school and learn how to be a machinist and the self motivated individual should be select for advanced degree programs that truly offer a challenging environment for the individual to exercise their talent in a more productive manner with less obstacles.

Runnon sentence but I'm not fixing it.

a reply to: Darkmadness

So because we agree on some things, I should not find exception in anything else you say? Sorry. Bedlam is correct. I still think higher education has a place for those seeking advanced degrees in the sciences and mathematics.

I did choose to make it without college, and so did my parents, but many people still need the structure and support. Just because it didn't work for you or I doesn't mean we have to deny it works for some other individuals. I just think most degrees are a waste, as are most graduates.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
I see, you want to prove how much more intelligent you are with your elitism because of your degree.

And we have a winner. It's a web page coder. No, sorry, Python, Ruby, C# and the like ARE examples of things you can just buy some books and do for yourself, because they're tech work.

You can't compare CSS with physical chemistry. Or tensor calculus.

a reply to: Bedlam

Obviously we're going to disagree here so my position that we have an inherit ability to teach ourselves things isn't going to change.

a reply to: Bedlam

Oh Lord, please forgive this man for he knows not what he does.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Never anywhere did I state that it shouldn't be an option.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: Bedlam

Oh Lord, please forgive this man for he knows not what he does.

You can't compare lambda functions to ambitwistors. Seriously.

Before I read all the replies, I want to respond to the OP on a clear slate.

There is more to life than college. But college is definitely a fine path to take if your real desire is to work in a college-level field. Not everyone fits that description. Many, including my son, are happy in skilled labor jobs, such as machining (his choice), carpentry, plumbing, mechanics, etc. High schools seem to press everyone toward college, but it simply isn't for everyone.

I tell people that to find their perfect job, discover what it is you do when there's nothing you have to do. If you love tinkering on a car, you're a mechanic. If you love building, you're a carpenter. If you love designing things, you're an engineer. If you love making sick people feel better, you're a nurse. If you love it enough, you're a doctor. If you love debating, you're a lawyer. And on to infinity.

Find what it is you are inside and work toward that career. It may involve years of college, or months of technical training. Whichever it requires, it's your path; take it.

But too many today choose their path based on money. Money is a poor measure of success. Real happiness comes from doing what you love, not buying what you want. It is precisely that drive for money that takes people into debt and leaves them a mediocre talent in a field they dislike, or worse, in a field where they cannot succeed.

I recently attained a BSEE (Bachelor of Science, Electrical Engineering) despite being over a half-century in age. I didn't go in for a job or career... I went back to school because I wanted to know all the things I had never learned on my own. I excelled, as did many other like-minded students. Others, though, did not have the love for electricity we had, and they all dropped out, one by one. Some turned their back on higher education; more switched to other fields of study. That was a waste of their time and money.

I was lucky. I graduated debt-free. That was one of my personal requirements. The road was tough, living on a shoestring and constantly searching for scholarships and grants. But I did it. Now there's a shiny diploma hanging on the wall of my shop. I have an internship in research while I work towards my Masters. But most importantly, I am happy doing what I do.

My son will never make as much as a machinist as I will as an engineer. But he makes a good living and he's happy. He helps me with my private research making parts and I help him when he needs electrical design. We're both good at what we do, and even better at it together. I would be miserable in his job, just running machinery all day long with no design freedom, and he would be miserable staring at equations and watching simulations run.

The point is, we're all different and we all should follow the paths our hearts show us. The only way to do that is to put aside the financial spreadsheets (unless your path is accounting) and concentrate on our own goals. No career you were not meant for is worth massive debt, and a career you are driven to achieve will make you find ways to achieve it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: pl3bscheese

I used to think the same way. I could design electrical circuits for myself, little 'toys' I made (and still make) to basically prove to myself I could do it. But there were limits to what I could do. I could make a filter from a cookbook, but making one without the cookbook never seemed to work.

As I went through my EE program I realized why.

There were some basic things, mainly mathematical concepts, that I had never learned. They weren't electrical; they were theoretical math. In college, I had to learn them, and later classes showed me their relationship to electrical design. Suddenly I could understand design concepts I never understood before. As a result, my designs became bolder and more useful.

Yeah, I learned electrical design on my own, but I never learned it fully on my own. I learned how to use circuits designed by engineers. It took a degree to learn how to design them myself.

You will probably disagree with me, but until you have learned a field on your own and then gone for the degree, you have no reference to go by to judge the value of the degree.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: Bedlam

Oh Lord, please forgive this man for he knows not what he does.

I see you are getting to know Bedlam. He actually has a sense of humor if you can find it. I suggest you ask Bedlam for his forgiveness, it will go better for you in the end. Just prostrate yourself before his greatness and except your place at the feet of his mighty intellect and he just might show mercy upon you. I'll show you how it's done . . .

"I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy! Bedlam, please enlighten me and elevate my mental capacity beyond it's current level to that of a common house fly so you can squash me with the fly swatter of your boundless knowledge, as it would be better to be so dispatched at your hand than to suffer in the darkness of my total lack of intelligent thoughts."

originally posted by: Darkmadness

originally posted by: rickymouse
The guy is right about the whole thing. Some jobs require an education but most don't. What happened to going to work at a job and working your way up the ladder, getting paid while you learned. Then you apply for a better job and get paid more as you gain experience. After four years you are getting a good wage and benefits. Beats going into debt and then going to work at subway.

Companies don't promote from within anymore professionals are highered laterally from company to company.

Upward mobility is severely limited and talent isn't a desirable trait anymore.

I would have never hired someone who had a degree from College, I liked to train my workers to work on the crew. I had people over me in Jobs that had degrees over the years, they seemed to lack common sense like regular working people around here could have.

To be a carpenter you do not need to go to college, I actually liked training in people that were young, they learned better at around eighteen years old. The young got that attitude that they can do anything, but in a few weeks they usually learn that they really didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did.

There are two year college degrees for stuff like Mechanics and electrician training that are good, you can get a job easily if you do those and avoid the regular college. You do not need a degree to make good money in this country, there are lots of good paying jobs that do not require degrees. If you like the trades you can get work. Look how many jobs the hurricanes and tornadoes are creating.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Money is a poor measure of success. Real happiness comes from doing what you love, not buying what you want.

I don't believe I've heard that before. Certainly, buying what you want brings some happiness, but doing what you love instills a much deeper form of happiness. Thanks for the quote.

a reply to: Darkmadness


So your going to have the best brains in debt up to their eyeballs, unable to buy a house or afford a family, this class will increase, since its a numbers game in the end, their will come a time when they get so pissed off. The ajustment might get severe.Many now don't give a toss about the election, because they know its all rigged. Hillary or Trump? Its like voting for the local car salseman.

a reply to: Darkmadness

I disagree: college/university is only a scam if you are going for a course/major that's worthless or a career path that doesn't necessarily need a degree.

I disagree with the notion that I can't teach myself as effectively as a professor who I've never met before.

Like others have said, self teaching has a limit. Hence you need to be tested by a university to make sure you really are learning correctly. You can always do online courses which are really cheap, but then your self learning and knowledge will be checked accordingly with exams at a local university.

I understand that university is not for everybody and many find the academic side difficult and do much better with a hands on training. But for some careers a degree is a must, for example all medical ones, physics, science, architecture, engineering, teaching and others as there is a level of risk to these professions and you need a set of skills and theory that can only be acquired and tested properly at college.

Would you visit a dentist who taught himself or one who has a degree?

a reply to: Bedlam

I can agree with you in having a time doing something else before college, voluntary work or something in between, it's the best thing before you jump into college. As for the rest, mmmmm, well yes, if you are a good student and dedicated while willing to sacrifice some of your personal life, it might help, but also depends on where you live, given the opportunities, you might just be dispatched and out for good, some people are good enough to be approached while still in college with an assured job after they graduate.