Is there a Gender Pay Gap issue in the West?

a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

originally posted by: Phage
So, merit based. I'm all for that.
I've worked with women who were just as good, if not better, than me but earned less.

Do you have any further information as to the possible reason behind that, other than passively implying that it's only because they are women?

I work with two other guy and three women in my job (graphic design for criminal federal trials). All three of the women make more than the three of us guys, not to mention the fourth woman who is our boss (and the National Forensics Lab director, who is out boss' boss, who is also a woman [and younger than all of us]). But the kicker here is that the at least two of us men (myself being one) greatly surpass these women both in competency at our jobs, skills in the programs that we use, and quite honestly, in our work ethic. Yet simply because these women have more time in the job than we do, they are getting paid more.

I have a federal job, and while we all have the same GS pay grade, they are quite a few "steps" ahead in raises, which are automatic.

So tell me, is this reverse pay gap appropriate just because they have a few years' more time in the position, yet are blatantly deficient in skills and willingness to keep up with training and changing technologies?

I'll be honest--this pay-gap garbage is just another sideshow for those who want something to complain about that distracts from real issues in our society. Sure, there are instances when women get paid less, but it has been shown time and time again that, for the most part, it is not BECAUSE of their sex, it's because of their actions. One important fact is that men apparently are more assertive about asking for raises than women are, and that's a big part of it. Add in the fact that many women enter the workforce intermittently because they choose to take time off for familial reasons (like my wife did, who set aside her career to homeschool and then have another child), and they don't get paid as much because they have large gaps in employment. Couple that with the fact there is still an overlap with executives and business owners that remain from a time when women really only had a handful of job and career opportunities (most of which were not high-paying positions), and it's easy to understand why there still may be a wage gap. (and those are just a few of the reasons...some of which apply to men, too)

But that said, it is not indicative of some broad-sweeping cultural problem in America, as many would desire us to believe, but a combination of many factors that select people are summing up into one problem and then using as a political stunt. And quite honestly, to espouse the idea that whatever wage gap may exist is mainly due to sexism shows a real lack of critical thinking skills on the part of those who believe it.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

So, you're using your own anecdotal evidence to imply that this is the norm for women who get pregnant?

I have two children, and my wife took off quite a bit of time with my son (as much as the Army would let her, plus some leave), and then by the time we had our second child, she was already a SAHM to homeschool my son and then now take care of our daughter.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean crap in this conversation. I mean, a quick Google search will show that pregnancy has a pretty big impact in the overall picture, but in the interest of being concise, I'll quote from the sourced Wiki article (emphasis mine):

Mandatory maternity leave imposes two sets of costs on affected corporations. Firstly, employers must continue financing the women's health insurance[dubious – discuss] coverage during her leave which often proves to be a costly endeavor. Moreover, they must also replace the women's labor productivity by finding and training substitute employees. A recent study by the American Management Association concluded that corporations incurred approximately $220 per year in 1993, not adjusted for inflation, for each woman using leave. Secondly, the enforcement of maternity leave legislation also increases the likelihood of women exiting the workforce altogether. During their work absence, they may recognize the importance of care taking and thus decide to remain at home beyond the designated length of their maternity leave. This represents a loss in human capital as valuable workers withdraw from the labor market who otherwise may have remained. After experiencing a precipitous increase from 46% in 1980 to 65.4% by 1995, the labor force participation rate of women with children under the age of six began declining down to 61.2% in 2003 following the introduction of FMLA.

Many of these extra costs are ultimately passed on to female employees in the form of lower pay and fewer advancement opportunities. Studies have demonstrated that these policies may potentially produce negative pay effects in the aggregate for women. Employers often choose to reduce wages to compensate for expected long-term costs from childbirth among women. Maternity leave also may inhibit the woman's career trajectory and promotion prospects. The extended period of absence that such policies awards often reduce a women's economic status and opportunities. During this hiatus, their job skills and experiences may deteriorate thus limiting their potential advancement.

The last sentence is the big overall point, I think, when it comes to how pregnancy and maternity leave affect the average career path of women who choose to get pregnant and have children--the longer you are away from the job, the less skills and time in position you accumulate, therefore making you less of a candidate for advancement and raises compared to someone else who didn't take such hiatuses.

Remember, all of this is "in general," because if you start focusing on individual examples without looking at the big picture, it's easy to argue against anything.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

It's more a gender "bring home the bacon" gap issue. Women bringing home less money in aggregate doesn't necessarily mean they are getting paid less in aggregate. What any of these studies fail to show is that gender has anything to do with how people are payed, but I think it is safe to say it has much to do with how people think, decide, and live out their lives.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

A woman I work with had a baby in mid-August. She worked up until two days before she delivered. Her husband, who also works with me, worked up until two days before she delivered.

He was back at work last week.

She's not back at work at all.

I've been at work this whole time.

Seems to me I've worked more than either of them, haven't I? Thanks for coming, third wave.

When they finally do acknowledge this myth the next step will be demanding more money to make up for this wage gap, regardless of the explanation behind it. They'll probably argue that the end result is what matters.

Liberals are all about slippery slopes.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

Did you take 9 months off maternity leave?

If you didnt take time off and worked then you deserve the money.

If I decided to take 9 months off because I decided to have unprotected sex I doubt I would be allowed to keep my job. That basically what maternity leave is, time off for having sex.

This thread is the best promotion for planned parenthood I've read in a long time!!!

the fact that the pay gap between mothers and non-mothers is greater than the overall gap between men and women seems to indicate that it's more about the role women play in childbirth and the childcare afterwards.
en.wikipedia.org...

where a employer will see a mother as being not as dependable, not as willing to work overtime, more likely to take more time off because of family emergencies.... which may or may not be true by the way... they see the complete opposite when it comes to fathers. fathers are seen to be more dependable, willing to work harder and longer, and there's always a mother around to take care of those pesky family emergencies.
www.thirdway.org...

although there is truth in the justifcations for this treatment between mothers and fathers, to some extent, there is also an amount of bias involved, of unjustified assumptions, and even the fact that the different treatment between the mother and father can provide reinforcement of trend. after all, if, in time, the father has found an extra perk in being a father while the mother has found is such a disadvantage... of course she will be the one taking time off everytime the kids have doctor's appointments or is sick, or whatever!! the loss the the family income is less if she does it!

the solution to avoiding the pay gap is to just get sterilized and include that information on your resume I guess. we could equalize things by more and more fathers taking more of a part in the childcare thus giving women more time to concentrate on building their careers and income but I am afraid that instead of it being a benefit it would just reduce fathers to the same level as mothers in the eyes of employers, removing the perk that fatherhood brings them.

But, I would venture to guess that overall, when you include what a mother does at home along with what she is doing in her 40 or so hour job, there is really very few men that are working harder than her, or more hours! it's a shame that she is rewarded for all this hard work with lower wages, less advancement opportunities, along with less appreciation and less security in her future.

if "getting knocked up" is an easy choice, is repopulating earth with little ones to replace us also an easy choice?
Because, more women are choosing to just not get knocked up and planned parenthood's business is booming!

a reply to: Phage

If its so prevalent, where are all the lawsuits for unequal pay?

Why arent people hiring only women since they work for less? Its not like a white male is going to get traction on a discrimination lawsuit if they are passed up for a cheaper female worker.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

Did you take 9 months off maternity leave?

If you didnt take time off and worked then you deserve the money.

If I decided to take 9 months off because I decided to have unprotected sex I doubt I would be allowed to keep my job. That basically what maternity leave is, time off for having sex.

You do seem very irate about a UK legal entitlement which is more around the wellbeing of the newborn than the mother - although in UK law it's now possible to split the amount of time allowed between both mother and father - something under your skin that you aren't sharing? Still narked because you can't pay half a dozen kids sixpence between them to clean your chimneys or something else from the 19th century?

Let's not forget that women are the biggest consumers worldwide.

For being so poor they sure have money to spend.



I was searching around a little bit for statistics and found this site:

www.realsexism.com...

It does a great job of pointing out the hypocrisy of modern feminism. A site where they've gathered all the hatefacts feminists would rather not hear about.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
When they finally do acknowledge this myth the next step will be demanding more money to make up for this wage gap, regardless of the explanation behind it. They'll probably argue that the end result is what matters.

Liberals are all about slippery slopes.

Reparations for disenfranchised female population? I can see that happening in the next 5 years.

#FemaleBackPayMatters ?

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

Did you take 9 months off maternity leave?

If you didnt take time off and worked then you deserve the money.

If I decided to take 9 months off because I decided to have unprotected sex I doubt I would be allowed to keep my job. That basically what maternity leave is, time off for having sex.

You do seem very irate about a UK legal entitlement which is more around the wellbeing of the newborn than the mother - although in UK law it's now possible to split the amount of time allowed between both mother and father - something under your skin that you aren't sharing? Still narked because you can't pay half a dozen kids sixpence between them to clean your chimneys or something else from the 19th century?

I dont ever plan on having kids.

So i find it is discriminatory. They get to have a huge break off work for haveing a brat but I dont?

If they can get maternity leave then I should be entitled to 9 months leave too for my own reasons.

Either no one should get that amount of time off or everyone.

To blow the myth up is simple. If i could pay half the population 77% on the dollar, as a greedy capitalist why would i not hire all women in return for the same labor.

Why would women entrepeneurs not see this, pay 90 cents on the dollar for all women workers and dominate a market with those savings???

We have seen this effect for illegal immigrants working for less for the same labor.
But we dont see this with women.

originally posted by: jellyrev
To blow the myth up is simple. If i could pay half the population 77% on the dollar, as a greedy capitalist why would i not hire all women in return for the same labor.

Why would women entrepeneurs not see this, pay 90 cents on the dollar for all women workers and dominate a market with those savings???

We have seen this effect for illegal immigrants working for less for the same labor.
But we dont see this with women.

Simply put women are a liability in buisness.

They get knocked up and suddenly your paying two wages. One for the pregnant women doing no work on a maternity leave and a secound wage for temporary cover.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

but... how much of that are they spending on themselves??
are they out there buying groceries that they then will bring home and prepare meals from to feed the entire family? are they buying their husband his clothing, the kid's their winter coats? in primitive times men hunted while women gathered. it seems to me that this might have been translated in more modern times as men worked and women gathered the needs of the family from the various stores.
in truth, I would venture that the majority of their earnings are going towards bills, food, and then the basic necessities of life for the family with both parents making sacrifices to ensure that the kids had their needs met. of course, I am talking about the stable two parent family here, and not the single parent, broken family. which does have quite a bit of bias against the males. mainly because of the disadvantages women have in the workforce.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Why do women programmers make SO MUCH less than men?

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: crazyewok

Pregnant women work less?
I have three children and did an administrative job. I showed up on time ran my store Yeah I was the owner. I did everything I did when I wasn't pregnant caveman.
Thanks for coming.

Did you take 9 months off maternity leave?

If you didnt take time off and worked then you deserve the money.

If I decided to take 9 months off because I decided to have unprotected sex I doubt I would be allowed to keep my job. That basically what maternity leave is, time off for having sex.

You do seem very irate about a UK legal entitlement which is more around the wellbeing of the newborn than the mother - although in UK law it's now possible to split the amount of time allowed between both mother and father - something under your skin that you aren't sharing? Still narked because you can't pay half a dozen kids sixpence between them to clean your chimneys or something else from the 19th century?

I dont ever plan on having kids.

So i find it is discriminatory. They get to have a huge break off work for haveing a brat but I dont?

If they can get maternity leave then I should be entitled to 9 months leave too for my own reasons.

Either no one should get that amount of time off or everyone.

I also don't plan on having kids, lucky really seeing as I'm male. The fact that the law allows women who do to then have time off to help both a) recover from the physical effects of pregnancy and childbirth and b) to bond with the newborn (also available as paternity leave to men in the UK) really isn't an issue for me. At least they are actually returning to work and not living off state benefits the entire time the child is considered not an adult...... that for me is a more pressing issue.

a reply to: crazyewok

there is also a built in bias, a cultural conditioning that's been kind of hard to erase in some areas of the country.
it's kind of like a man needs a good paying job, he has a family to support, while the female should have a male supporting her anyways, so well, they will opt to employ the male to higher paying positions.

a reply to: dawnstar

It's no secret that women are bigger consumers than men, and we're not necessarily talking about necessities here. We're talking about "shopping". Go to any clothing store and compare the men's department with the women's department, the latter is usually at least twice the size as the former and this is for a reason.

It's common knowledge that women consume more, and this goes beyond shopping for necessities. Women often like to spend their men's money, also common knowledge.