EU demands Apple pay Ireland up to 13 billion euros in tax

a reply to: ScepticScot

That is the point. Companies making huge profits selling goods or services in one country but having a registered head office where all the profit are registered in another that offers a lower tax rate.

So are you saying all countries should take away the corporate taxes?

Because the only other line for what you are saying is pure double taxation. The government where the good is sold already collects the sales tax. The government where the company collects a corporate tax on profits (an income tax) and then taxes the owners again when the profits make it to them (double taxation on income). Yet you would probably scream bloody murder if the guv double taxed you.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: ScepticScot

That is the point. Companies making huge profits selling goods or services in one country but having a registered head office where all the profit are registered in another that offers a lower tax rate.

So are you saying all countries should take away the corporate taxes?

Because the only other line for what you are saying is pure double taxation. The government where the good is sold already collects the sales tax. The government where the company collects a corporate tax on profits (an income tax) and then taxes the owners again when the profits make it to them (double taxation on income). Yet you would probably scream bloody murder if the guv double taxed you.

I already am double taxed. I pay income tax on what I earn and VAT on most of what I buy. That is not the issue.

What I can't do is negotiate my own personal rate of tax or claim that all my work I did in this country actually should be taxed elsewhere.

The EU rulling found that the preferential tax scheme given to Apple was state aid. That is illegal under EU rules so Apple have to pay the correct amount for a company based in Ireland.

That is a separate but obviously connected issue to how Apple funnel their profits through Ireland in the first place.

a reply to: ScepticScot

What I can't do is negotiate my own personal rate of tax or claim that all my work I did in this country actually should be taxed elsewhere.

Yes you can. You can do it the same way as the business. If you don't like the tax rate, then move where taxes are lower. And yes businesses are going to get tax incentives from their location simply because the business brings jobs, and people who spend more money in the local economy.

a reply to: JDeLattre89

f you don't like the tax rate, then move where taxes are lower.

Correct, but there, you still have to pay the same rate as the others.
If apple got a special deal, all the other companies who pay the normal rate, are in disadvantage.
Using the argument it´s a job maker, is a lazy one. That would be correct for every company that writes black numbers.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: ScepticScot

What I can't do is negotiate my own personal rate of tax or claim that all my work I did in this country actually should be taxed elsewhere.

Yes you can. You can do it the same way as the business. If you don't like the tax rate, then move where taxes are lower. And yes businesses are going to get tax incentives from their location simply because the business brings jobs, and people who spend more money in the local economy.

Cool so I cannot rock up in your home town and get a 0.05% tax rate all of my own. I am packing as I type...

Individual tax rates for companies are illegal under EU rules. Apple were and are free to base themselves whereever they want in the EU but they have to pay the tax rate of that country.

I know that tax sweetners are both common and legal for big companies in the US but they are not in the EU.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Individual tax rates for companies are illegal under EU rules. Apple were and are free to base themselves whereever they want in the EU but they have to pay the tax rate of that country. I know that tax sweetners are both common and legal for big companies in the US but they are not in the EU.

Again . . . that is a concern between the EU and Ireland, not between the EU and Apple. It is up to the government to get that part of the contract right, not the business.

We are not saying Apple is right in this, simply that the EU has no business going after them.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: ScepticScot

Individual tax rates for companies are illegal under EU rules. Apple were and are free to base themselves whereever they want in the EU but they have to pay the tax rate of that country. I know that tax sweetners are both common and legal for big companies in the US but they are not in the EU.

Again . . . that is a concern between the EU and Ireland, not between the EU and Apple. It is up to the government to get that part of the contract right, not the business.

We are not saying Apple is right in this, simply that the EU has no business going after them.

The tax scheme was one designed and proposed by Apple. Apple were the beneficiary ( by more than they have to pay back due to the time limit) at the expense of other companies

They are not being punished they are simply being told to pay the tax they owe, same as you or I would if we had under paid our taxes.

The EU has every right to make sure that the rules of the single market are followed. Ireland and apple have happily had all the benefits of access to the single market, the least they can both do is play by the rules.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Ok, lets go through this again.

Apple does not owe taxes. They paid the taxes they owed.

In hindsight, the bureaucrats of the EU decided they wanted more money from Ireland so they are telling Apple to pay up.

a reply to: ScepticScot

The point being that ... as I understand it from what my husband is telling me, that contract had to go through multiple levels of review, including an EU inspector who signed off on it.

This is not Apple. This is on Ireland, possibly with a corrupt EU official on board.

But Apple has no power to make any laws or regulatory rules. That is all on the government entities involved.

Look, I understand that you hate big corps, and I don't much like Apple either, but I still don't see how they are the ones who somehow did this. They do not make law.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Ireland's government is the one that agreed to the contract.

Apple can propose, but it is not in the driver's seat. If it proposed terms that were against the law, it is on the government to say, "No, this is illegal." Apple DOES NOT MAKE LAW. They are not government.

Listen to yourself.

This is like the middle school teacher caught in an illicit affair with a 13-year-old student, and you are defending him by saying ... "But SHE came on to HIM!" No, seriously, he is the adult and the authority figure and ought to know better no matter how tempting she might be.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: ScepticScot

Ok, lets go through this again.

Apple does not owe taxes. They paid the taxes they owed.

In hindsight, the bureaucrats of the EU decided they wanted more money from Ireland so they are telling Apple to pay up.

Apple paid a tax rate of 0.005% in 2014. If that is paying your taxes then sign me up...

The money does not go to the EU so your point is just plain wrong.

Under EU rules getting state aid is illegal. The ruling is that getting a tax rate not available to other companies is the same as state aid (this seems fairly obvious). Apple have been told to pay what they should have done if the first place , the exact same as if Ireland had been passing them brown paper bags full of used twenties (and in this case that would have been a lot of envelopes) they would have been told to pay it back.


If Ireland or Apple had believed that it was legitimate to tax Apple at a lower rate then they could have just given Apple a lower rate. Have a look at what they actually did to achieve this lower rate including but not limited to setting up a stateless 'head office' that profits where attributed to.

Without wishing to put words in your mouth I suspect that your position is based round a a belief that corporation tax is wrong and that Apple avoiding paying it, is somehow a win against big government. Being against corporation tax is a perfectly legitimate position but that should apply to all companies, not just those with the money and influence to get preferential treatment. Anyone who has any belief at all in the benefits of the free market and competition should be on the EU side on this.

a reply to: ketsuko

Why would I hate big corporations? Can you point out where I have said anything like that. What I do expect is for the them to play by the same rules as everyone else and not use their money and power to bribe/blackmail themselves into a preferential position. I do think IOS a terrible operating system (sorry apple fan boys) but that does not make me hate them.

The problem with your (frankly rather creepy) analogy is that apple are not a 13 year old girl, they are, depending on how you want to measure, it either one of or the biggest company in the world.

Same point as I made to JD above, if Apple really did believe that their tax rate was legitimate why the hugely elaborate scheme required to achieve it? Why not just get a lower tax rate from Ireland?

Both Apple and Ireland were at fault here as it was an attempt to get round EU rules on state subsidies to industry. I thought you where pro free market? You ought to be supporting the EU on this one.

Double post

a reply to: ScepticScot

Without wishing to put words in your mouth I suspect that your position is based round a a belief that corporation tax is wrong and that Apple avoiding paying it, is somehow a win against big government. Being against corporation tax is a perfectly legitimate position but that should apply to all companies, not just those with the money and influence to get preferential treatment. Anyone who has any belief at all in the benefits of the free market and competition should be on the EU side on this.

Nope, I believe that Corporations should be taxed the same as people, no more no less. However; just as believe the government (fed) should go after people for not paying the state taxes they knew about when they already did, I don't believe they should go after Corporations either.

And let's be real real here. This has nothing to do with punishing Apple for unfairness (personally I can't stand Apple, but they are not in the wrong here), no this is about the EU grabbing all the money it can from what it sees as a cash cow.

You say that the EU doesn't receive the money, but it does. As a member of the EU, Ireland forwards a portion of their collected taxes up to the EU for the privileged of being a member in order to feed the mega bureaucracy.

Countries EU contributions aren't based on tax receipts ( with the exception of a set % of VAT) so no it really isn't a tax grab by the EU.

Personally I fail to see how anyone can believe Apple are not in wrong , along with Ireland, given the details of the scheme to avoid paying tax. Again this isn't Apple accidentally underpaying their tax, this is deliberate and complex scheme to pay rates far below the actual rate.

The EU rulling is that Ireland and Apple breeched rules on state aid. It seems pretty clear that they did. Unless you can explain what the difference is between allowing a single company not to pay tax that others have to; and giving a company a subsidy that others don't get?

So many "armchair lawyers" in this thread.

The EU won't make a demand that is not legally enforceable, and if Apple believes its an illegal demand, they have specialist international taxation lawyers on retainer. They will fight about it for a while, then one side, or the other will capitulate, and funds will change hands, and lawyers will get much richer.

How you think it should work, is often not how it actually works.

I don’t yet know the details of the law here that prescribes Apple give more taxes to Ireland, but it’s clear huge corporations can practically extort a small weak country like Ireland into doing what they want to do by threatening to take jobs away.


Perhaps this is just what is occurring and the EU knows this therefore is jumping in on Apple’s case.

If Ireland did it Apple would threaten the jobs there so naturally Ireland has to be on Apples side on this dispute

Poor…poor apple... boo hoo hooo... boo hoo hooo


A company that exploits workers all over the earth

boo hoo hooo... boo hoo hooo poor apple


F__K Apple

These greedy pigs cheat even the US out of paying their goddam taxes and make these lousy overpriced pieces of Sh__ called iphones and slave wage all across the earth and people are crying and defending them

Booo hoo hoo booo hoo hoo …Poor Apple Poor apple

Billions of dollars of profits they make

Booo hoo hoo booo hoo hoo …Poor Apple Poor apple

F___ them

Great!

as for me it is a nonsense