Safe School program gays lesbians transgenders bullied

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Annee

Its really not the same.

It's not? I was bullied because I was different. I was, because of my speech impediment due to a cleft pallet, deemed "retard", in spite of the fact I'm anything but. "retard" "hairlip" etc... But that's not as bad as being bullied because of orientation, or gender issues? Really? The pain seems remarkably similar.

Oh, and where the hell were the teacher when I was being bullied, and others?? Blind eye seems much the same.

Tell me again, how it's not the same.

I repeat. It is not the same.

Did the Governor of your state take the bullies side against you?

Annee, I'm sorry but you're wrong.

As a gay man, I can tell you there is no difference between being bullied for being gay and being bullied for being poor for example.

I was both, and the abuse I suffered from kids and adults alike wasn't any different just because they chose a new topic.

Bullying - is buylling and using the following fallacy:



In order to some how prove that it is different, doesn't make it so. Individual circumstances can certainly be worse for any individual - but as a group, no, it is exactly the same kind of feelings and reactions.

Gay kids aren't special they don't feel 'harder' than other people do. Being abused for who you are, how you look, how much money you have, where you live etc is all the same at it's core.

To say it isn't, is simply intellectually dishonest and on some level elitist as that implies some people's pain is somehow more legitimate than others because of their sexual orientation, which is just another form of discrimination, or you defending people because YOU think you know whats best for them.

Either are equally spurious.

~Tenth

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I know you're a gay man, father, and Canadian.

You are independent and often at odds in your thinking with what I've experienced from other gay men/fathers. IMO

Canadians don't seem to understand how powerful, vocal, and political the Christuan Right is in America. IMO

Yes, bullying is bullying. But, the statistics in America aren't made up. LGBT kids are at higher risk.

I'm also a parent and grandparent. I've seen what bullying can do. I've got the psychiatrist receipts to prove that. And that was for a "normal" kid.

Canada is years ahead of America on acceptance of LGBT. They also have other laws protecting people from hate speech, something America does not have because the Constitution of USA guarantees Free Speech.

I've seen the evolution of bullying, in my many years, and efforts to stop it in schools. We have come a long way, My 8 year old grandson, who I raise, is in a zero tolerance school.

However, there are areas in America, especially in the Bible Belt, where protection and equality for LGBT is almost non-existent. Even the opposite. The bullying is encouraged by adults, and those in charge.

Bullying is an archaic animalistic behavior. Archaic God beliefs don't help.

There are a few safe schools in America. They are open to any child who feels they need protection from bullying.

a reply to: Annee

Canadians don't seem to understand how powerful, vocal, and political the Christuan Right is in America. IMO

And I woudl argue that's wrong, because the primary cause of push back when LGBT rights were a fight in my country were predominantly brought on by American groups lobbying Canadian churches. And LGBT rights weren't fully adopted by all our provinces until I think 2007. There's also tons of discrimination still regarding Trans folk etc, but that's another topic.

Yes, bullying is bullying. But, the statistics in America aren't made up. LGBT kids are at higher risk.

Only because the media and the general public have focused on the topic for so long. This isn't caused by THEM being gay, this is being caused by US constantly discussing their struggle and shoving them in the spot light.

I'm also a parent and grandparent. I've seen what bullying can do. I've got the psychiatrist receipts to prove that. And that was for a "normal" kid.

My kids were bullied for having 2 fathers. They were bullied for NOT being gay because ' how could you not be in a house full of homos'.

They are just 'regular' kids like I was. They were bullied for their choice of clothes. Now I do very well, me and my husband, we live comfortably, our kids have wanted for nothing ever and have always had actually a bit more than they should have, because I didn't as a kid. Still though, the bullies found a target and a reason and went to town.

And my kids didn't have less pain or suffering because of what they were bullied for, they were bullied, and that's all it took to invoke those really strong negative emotions that kids feel when that happens. Regardless of the reason.

However, there are areas in America, especially in the Bible Belt, where protection and equality for LGBT is almost non-existent. Even the opposite. The bullying is encouraged by adults, and those in charge.

Right, but that's again anecdotal. You can't tell me being bullied for being gay, is worse than being bullied because your poor ,because this one subset of the country - the bible belt, treats gay kids worse than poor kids.

Because if you go to the Eastern Sea Board, the NY region for example, kids are bullied for being poor, or black or whatever else, that abuse is the same, if not worse - anecdotally, than what the gay kids in those regions suffer.

So It's all relative to your own personal experience and where you live.

Therefore, no type of bullying is worse than another, overall. It only worsens based on where you live, your socio-economic background and your individual experience.

But to the other person's point, the abuse they suffered for a 'cleft pallet' as a child doesn't differ from the kid who was bullied for being gay at the core level. The same action/reaction scenario occurred regardless.

That's all I'm trying to get across. Blanket statements about gay kids being in a different class when it comes to bullying than other groups is just not true.

ETA: and regarding statistics, gay kids are more likely to report abuse than other demographics, because they know that there is a higher likely hood of their complaint being taken seriously since it's been such a major focus of the last 10 years.

~Tenth

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

My kids were bullied for having 2 fathers. They were bullied for NOT being gay because ' how could you not be in a house full of homos'.

I was bullied for being shy, having a disabled and divorced mom in the 50s, and being raised by my grandmother.

My personal experience of discrimination comes from having a mom with polio, who wore a full length brace, and used 2 "Kenny Sticks" (type of crutch).

People did not know yet what caused polio - - - and treated us like contagious lepers. We were thrown out of restaurants, refused entry to business, etc. Some kids were not allowed to play with us.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do respect your opinion, but it is different and at odds with what I've personally experienced and/or learned.

I am not LGBT - - - it is just something I've followed ever since I went to work at a place where I was the minority being a straight female. I tried to educate myself to better understand my co-workers. And I did have my own experience with discrimination.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haven't you said you came out later in life? You weren't out as a teen?


We are going to continue to be at odds on this subject. And that's OK.

a reply to: Annee

I do respect your opinion, but it is different and at odds with what I've personally experienced and/or learned.

I'm not saying your experience wasn't any more or lress traumatic than others, not by a long shot. I'm just saying it is anecdotal and it can't really be used to white wash all LGBT into a single group who some how experience bullying on a different level than others.

Haven't you said you came out later in life? You weren't out as a teen?

I grew up in a time where being gay - in my teens would have probably gotten me killed or at the very least left homeless.

I came out my first few years of college when I met my husband.

We are going to continue to be at odds on this subject. And that's OK.

Of course it is, my goal isn't to brow beat you into thinking about this any differently, just trying to add another perspective to the conversation is all. I just think it does a disservice to people who have experienced any form of severe bullying to say that they had it better or worse than other kids who suffered bullying.



~Tenth

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

I grew up in a time where being gay - in my teens would have probably gotten me killed or at the very least left homeless.

I came out my first few years of college when I met my husband.

See, I do pay attention to what you post.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
As a gay man, I can tell you there is no difference between being bullied for being gay and being bullied for being poor for example.

As a woman of past transsexual experience, I think you are full of crap. I'm sure if I was more familiar with gay culture and terminology I could find a descriptive word for what your sentiments make me feel - Uncle Tom, maybe? Not that I'm proposing you latch on to some victimization model but maybe you've so normalized and mainstreamed yourself, you've forgotten the societal and familial pressures outside of the scholastic environment that compounds and multiplies LGBT bullying and harassment? Maybe the culture in Canada is just that much different?

Does the poor kid go home from school and get maligned by parents and siblings for being poor? Are there words comparable to homophobia and transphobia to describe the oppression, prejudice and discrimination of the kids that get bullied or beaten for having acne or shabby clothes? How about gay bashing? You've so compartmentalized things while being oblivious to the bigger picture. Yes, getting bullied for being LGBT hurts as does getting bullied for anything else but it is different and you know that unless you are in denial, have a faulty memory or were safely in the closet during your academic years.

Bullying - is buylling and using the following fallacy:

In order to some how prove that it is different, doesn't make it so. Individual circumstances can certainly be worse for any individual - but as a group, no, it is exactly the same kind of feelings and reactions.

It is funny how you are using your own anecdotal evidence to refute statistics already posted. Your graphic seems rather ironic to me.

Gay kids aren't special they don't feel 'harder' than other people do. Being abused for who you are, how you look, how much money you have, where you live etc is all the same at it's core.

At the core, yes, but maybe where you're from being gay is as vanilla as being overweight or funny looking? Around these parts and in places outside of your utopia, being gay or trans carries a lot more baggage exceeding well beyond the campus.

To say it isn't, is simply intellectually dishonest and on some level elitist as that implies some people's pain is somehow more legitimate than others because of their sexual orientation, which is just another form of discrimination, or you defending people because YOU think you know whats best for them.

If bullying and harassment ended at the gates of the schoolyard, I would be inclined to agree with you. If there weren't genocidal laws being passed dictating where a person can pee, I might agree with you. If a certain political party wasn't trying to revoke marriage equality, prohibit gay adoption and remove the protections interpreted to be in place regarding sexual orientation and gender identity, I probably would agree with you but I don't.

In my retarded state, there are laws that prevent schools from presenting any information that promotes LGBT issues in a positive light for the same stupid reasons as the petition noted in the OP. At an institutional level, being gay or trans is not normal and not to be talked about because parents don't want their children exposed to the concepts. If you don't think this makes LGBT kids already outsiders and that being bullied for it doesn't present a different, more difficult or intense circumstances, then you're living in a fantasy.

As I suggested in an earlier post, maybe people should look up just what a "safe school" is. See if your local programs don't specifically call out anti-LGBT bullying efforts and if they do, it is because LGBT kids face special risks that straight kids don't. That's an irrefutable fact.

a reply to: Freija

As a woman of past transsexual experience, I think you are full of crap. I'm sure if I was more familiar with gay culture and terminology I could find a descriptive word for what your sentiments make me feel - Uncle Tom, maybe? Not that I'm proposing you latch on to some victimization model but maybe you've so normalized and mainstreamed yourself, you've forgotten the societal and familial pressures outside of the scholastic environment that compounds and multiplies LGBT bullying and harassment? Maybe the culture in Canada is just that much different?

So you start off by insulting me, then insinuating that I'm somehow out of touch with 'being a victim' and therefore I'm wrong?

Okay.

It is funny how you are using your own anecdotal evidence to refute statistics already posted. Your graphic seems rather ironic to me.

I used my anecdotal evidence to prove her point was wrong, that all walks of life experience the same kinds of emotions and reactions to severe bullying. I didn't refute the statistics, I put them into context. That's what they are for.

At the core, yes, but maybe where you're from being gay is as vanilla as being overweight or funny looking? Around these parts and in places outside of your utopia, being gay or trans carries a lot more baggage exceeding well beyond the campus.

And that proves my point, it's relative to where you live and your own personal experience. It's not that way across the board as some would suggest.

In my retarded state, there are laws that prevent schools from presenting any information that promotes LGBT issues in a positive light for the same stupid reasons as the petition noted in the OP. At an institutional level, being gay or trans is not normal and not to be talked about because parents don't want their children exposed to the concepts. If you don't think this makes LGBT kids already outsiders and that being bullied for it doesn't present a different, more difficult or intense circumstances, then you're living in a fantasy.

Say it with me now:

IN YOUR STATE. IN YOUR TOWN. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Those are all the points I was making. Your situation is made worse by those factors up above.

IT IS NOT NOT, THE SAME FOR ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE THAT ARE GAY, AS I AM PROOF OF THAT AND SO ARE MANY OTHERS.

This does not, in any way, make what you experience, less than what it is. Not by a long shot. But please don't pretend like everybody suffers they way you do or others in your state do.

They don't, that's intelletually dishonest.

See if your local programs don't specifically call out anti-LGBT bullying efforts and if they do, it is because LGBT kids face special risks that straight kids don't. That's an irrefutable fact.

You keep proving my point. Anecdotal evidence, based on circumstances of geography, population and political party.

Those do not extend country, or world wide.

Stop trying to pretend it does just because everybody doesn't fit the narrow view of experiences that you consider 'worst' that any other kind of bullying.

~Tenth

For what its worth, my oldest son is gay. He "came out" when he was 15 to his mother and I. We had known since he was very young, however, and it was more of a "finally, we got that out of the way....now lets get to work".

"Get to work" was us spending time grounding him in who he was (versus "what" he was). Making sure he identified as human, and not gay. Making sure he knew that terms like "gay" and "slut" can be similar when they are reducing a person down to merely what they do between their legs.

With that said, he was never bullied. I live in the buckle of the bible belt, down here in "backwards" texas (as the sentiment from up north seems to enjoy stating). We talk about this type of stuff, and his feelings circulate more around metro areas, as he has lived in them before.

But here in small town west Texas, neither him or his best friend (who was also gay) were never bullied. Or anything remotely similar. He never had any physical altercations ever.

I think 10th makes a point: the assholes you live around have a lot to do with how you are treated socially. And its not the same everywhere. In Snyder, TX i was discriminated against for not being hispanic. Meaning, having brown skin. Oh well....its their ignorance, not mine.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

With that said, he was never bullied. I live in the buckle of the bible belt, down here in "backwards" texas (as the sentiment from up north seems to enjoy stating). We talk about this type of stuff, and his feelings circulate more around metro areas, as he has lived in them before.

But here in small town west Texas, neither him or his best friend (who was also gay) were never bullied. Or anything remotely similar. He never had any physical altercations ever.

I think 10th makes a point: the assholes you live around have a lot to do with how you are treated socially. And its not the same everywhere. In Snyder, TX i was discriminated against for not being hispanic. Meaning, having brown skin. Oh well....its their ignorance, not mine.

Are we really talking about individual experiences? Or overall statistics?

Who said bullying of LGBT happens to every LGBT kid?

But, there are definitely areas where it can be a problem without out support.

Not all parents of LGBT kids are supportive like you are. And I know you know that.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
So you start off by insulting me, then insinuating that I'm somehow out of touch with 'being a victim' and therefore I'm wrong?

I wasn't implying you were wrong, just somewhat out of touch. I Uncle Tom'd you for lack of better words and didn't mean for them to be insulting per se but I find your lack of understanding or solidarity in this matter somewhat confusing.

...And that proves my point, it's relative to where you live and your own personal experience. It's not that way across the board as some would suggest....

Say it with me now:

IN YOUR STATE. IN YOUR TOWN. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Precisely. Even in the more liberal and progressive pockets in this country, LGBT kids are specifically singled out and bullied and physically assaulted for their orientation or identity. Perhaps if you had been out during your teen years and faced being killed or homelessness, you would feel differently? I was and I do have a different opinion and I think my experiences were more typical than unique.

Granted, I am older than you and my own perspectives may be skewed. I was lucky, home was my sanctuary but for many LGBT kids it is not. For me, K-12 was a constant minefield of abuse, bullying and violence that without family support I would have never survived. For many of kids of today that face the same thing, that you are mistaken to think isn't widespread in this country and many others, there is no sanctuary and queer kids face opposition not only at school but at home as well. You're reducing a multi-faceted issue to a single talking point

IT IS NOT NOT, THE SAME FOR ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE THAT ARE GAY, AS I AM PROOF OF THAT AND SO ARE MANY OTHERS.

This does not, in any way, make what you experience, less than what it is. Not by a long shot. But please don't pretend like everybody suffers they way you do or others in your state do.

They don't, that's intelletually dishonest.

What you see as being intellectually dishonest I think is being somewhat oblivious beyond your own experience. Let's call it a draw.

You keep proving my point. Anecdotal evidence, based on circumstances of geography, population and political party.

And what you've done is exactly the same thing.

a reply to: Freija

I wasn't implying you were wrong, just somewhat out of touch. I Uncle Tom'd you for lack of better words and didn't mean for them to be insulting per se but I find your lack of understanding or solidarity in this matter somewhat confusing.

Lack of solidarity? You may have not meant it in the way I'm about to discuss, but I'm sure tired of being told that just because I'm a member of the same community means I must somehow agree with all the viewpoints it holds as mainstream.

The left has really come a long way in being the deniers of freedom of speech and encouraging group think by the use of labels.

Anyway, back to the topic, I can walk back my thoughts on thinking you'd insulted me, just a miscommunication.

Precisely. Even in the more liberal and progressive pockets in this country, LGBT kids are specifically singled out and bullied and physically assaulted for their orientation or identity. Perhaps if you had been out during your teen years and faced being killed or homelessness, you would feel differently? I was and I do have a different opinion and I think my experiences were more typical than unique.

The overwhelming evidence suggests that your experiences were more unique simply based on the math. Far less people were coming out when we were young some 40 plus years ago than there are today. And the social stigma in liberal countries isn't nearly as pervasive or acted upon.

Had I been faced with those situations, which I was since I had weighed the options of doing so for years, I would still think that these incidents are more isolated that pervasive.

Most bullying and discrimination is the result of group think. But it's instigated by very few people who are good at getting people to follow along. There aren't that many leaders in the world and let's be honest, most people would rather follow than lead.

As show in this thread, there are places with apparently no instigators, so people of within whatever culture is supposedly systematically singled out for bullying and discrimination, don't have those experiences.

A target is a target, and bullies - instigators, will find any number of reasons to behave in the ways that cause physical and emotional damage to their victims.

You say I'm not seeing beyond my own experiences, but that's all I've done. You stated bluntly that your experiences make you believe that your experience is more wide spread that isolated. I think bullying is widespread and that discrimination for any number of reasons among our youth is a constant.

But I don't think LGBT kids specifically have it worse than other groups who are discriminated against, in the context of their demographics.

I will add that I do not include transgender matters when I make these comments, I do actually think they have it worse in today's current culture simply because of who they are specifically, and that's still a very important fight we have to keep fighting in order to change that.

As a "whole" community, things have gotten much, much much better than they were. You, being older than I (I think anyway, 50's here)must certainly admit to at least that.

~Tenth

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I am out of time for a proper response but let me ask you this question in reference to the OP. If LGBT bullying was not being called out as a special issue beyond other types of bullying (which it is) why would there even be a safe schools program like the one that's being petitioned against?

BTW, I'll be 62 in about 4 months. Graduated high school in 1973.

originally posted by: Freija

I wasn't implying you were wrong, just somewhat out of touch. I Uncle Tom'd you for lack of better words and didn't mean for them to be insulting per se but I find your lack of understanding...

You called him an Uncle Tom.

YOU called him an Uncle Tom.
Sheeeeeit I'm half across the world down the bottom of the South Pacific and KNOW that's a shot despite some inference it was just a lack of available words...

You didn't speak it. It didn't come forth via your mouth.

You typed it.
Keystroke after keystroke...and then moved your cursor to the 'Reply' button in order to post it.
So let's just accept that was a conscious decision unless you sleep-post?


Uncle Tom'd.

Those who don't fit into our convenient compartments of our positions. Uncle Tom 'em.

Works a treat.


...just find the sheer irony of Uncle Tom'ing someone given the subject of Bullying to be rather interesting

a reply to: alien

Hey! This is not a "safe school" nor a safe space. We're all grown ups here and tenth has told me personally if I can't stand the heat, to get out of the kitchen. My choice of terminology may have been unfortunate but the sentiment or my intentions were not. I'm sure there would have been a better gay term, I just didn't know what it was. It would probably still have been perceived as derogatory because it was meant to be but perhaps not such a direct insult if I had come up with a more flowery colloquialism?

Tenth had the luxury of not coming out until college where most people are more mature and accepting. Many LGBT kids are not so fortunate and the additional risk statistics do not lie in spite of the fact that some may so desire to normalize and isolate themselves from from this reality that they choose to deny being gay presents any special problem to kids that are bullied in school for it.

As he noted, just because he is a gay man, it doesn't dictate he is necessarily agreement with all the viewpoints as held by the gay community. I understand this because I myself am certainly not on-board with all the crap from the trans communities either. BUT, I don't attempt to deny the facts and statistics and throw others under the bus because I didn't have the same experience or don't think it's a problem.

Then to fall back on the left/right paradigm and inhibition of free speech alluding to PC culture is just surprising to me. What's next? Supporting Donald Trump and the positions on LGBT issues of the Republican party? I realize he is Canadian and these don't apply but I do have to wonder.

There is no love lost between the gay and trans communities. Since he did at least acknowledge that trans issues are different and do require different understanding, support and further maturation, he gets a pass. But if he thinks similar complexities don't still affect gay, lesbian and bi kids and that their issues don't extend beyond the schoolyard compounding the problems of school bullying, he's being severely oblivious.

We've all got 2¢ to spare. That was mine.

a reply to: Annee

No. I don't. If it's not very obvious, then you will never see it. Additionally, this has absolutely nothing to do with civil rights whatsoever. I can't believe you would use that word here. It's almost shameful if I wasn't aware you're simply ignorant.

a reply to: Freija

so many uninformed right wing bigots on these boards who deny anything outside what they dont know

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Annee

No. I don't. If it's not very obvious, then you will never see it. Additionally, this has absolutely nothing to do with civil rights whatsoever. I can't believe you would use that word here. It's almost shameful if I wasn't aware you're simply ignorant.

CIVIL: of or relating to the people who live in a country.

"People's Rights"

a reply to: tothetenthpower

so do you represent all gay men, the truth is some people are killing themselves for being bullied for being gay

a reply to: lortl

I'm sorry as a mother of four children I disagree, it is dangerous and it has a far more sinister agenda that is anti family and has strong leanings towards communism and the marxist agenda.

Leaked video: Safe Schools is "not about stopping bullying"! Co-founder Roz Ward had admitted the program is actually about supporting gender and sexual diversity - not anti-bullying. www.facebook.com...

There is also an even darker side leading to the acceptance of pedophilia.

"Pedos have been legally protected since the 50's via tax funded Rockerfeller Foundation donations that changed the penal code
All after pedo research (The Kinsey Report) was carried out in the 40's again by tax dollars and Rockerfeller Foundation
Be informed search the "Kinsey Syndrome" on YouTube with all evidence and horror in justification to identify children and babies as sexual beings and having orgasms interpreted from vomiting, convulsing, screaming and resistance.
.
The very basis of all sex education and conditioning in acceptance sexualising children everywhere you look Introduction in Australia of 'Safe Schools' program which is not about bullying but child sexuality bringing in pedo agenda in on the back of same sex relationships with emphasis on children being sexual beings and should experiment not only with peers but adults damming any personal morality and choices as offensive if not of the orchestrated agenda
.
Simply all adults have responsibility to protect not abuse children, it is all our responsibility of all children. Children are not sexual beings, only mirror what society reflects incapable to comphrehend adult concepts and maturity thus easy prey in indoctrination to such vial acts against the innocent

- Joanne McKay "