The Extra Biblical Evidence for the existence of Jesus

a reply to: chr0naut

If you know of any text which uses the word 'christ' outside of the Jewish translations please post its details.

If you want to know who the Old Testament Messiah is, that's Cyrus the Great.
And so was David, and tons of people were the Messiah. Many, many.

If you want a "son of God" there is no shortage of that Worldwide, all throughout history, every royal line traced its lineage to a god. The idea of David as son of god is not first by a long shot.

If the idea of a single anointed person able to do a thing that others can't, unique mission capable, then I give you: donh, donh, donh, Balaam of Beor dated to c.800 BCE

[i.12] Heed the admonition, adversaries of Sha[gar-and-Ištar]!
... skilled diviner.
To skilled diviners shall one take you, and to an oracle;
[i.14] To a perfumer of myrrh and a priestess.
Who covers his body with oil,
And rubs himself with olive oil.
To one bearing an offering in a horn;
One augurer after another, and yet another.
As one augurer broke away from his colleagues,
The strikers departed ...
deir-alla-inscription

a reply to: windword

What? That Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnation of the Angel of the Lord? There is no Jewish tradition that says that "The Messiah" would be the incarnate of the Angel of the Lord.

Alan Segal is a Jew and argues in the "Two powers of Heaven" was a Jewish belief up until the second century and dates back around 200 B.C. You can read the whole book online free.

Alan Segal was a Jew and rejected this belief himself, but made this argument none the less. Micahel Heiser extended on his work in his dissertation.

I really thing you would enjoy that Michael Heiser video he give a crap ton of references in their and explains the Hebrew language. He has a PH.d in Hebrew. He knows his stuff, imo.


Take with salt:

jewsforjesus.org...

Just to show you the Messianic Jewish side.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Sorry if you don't like my responses. I use the Bible because windword and I are discussing the bible....

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: windword

What? That Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnation of the Angel of the Lord? There is no Jewish tradition that says that "The Messiah" would be the incarnate of the Angel of the Lord.

Take with salt:

jewsforjesus.org...

Just to show you the Messianic Jewish side.

Jesus couldn't be "The Angel of the Lord", unless he was playing both roles at the same time.

Matthew 2:13
Now after they had left, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up, take the child and His mother, and escape to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy Him".

a reply to: windword

I am not an expert in greek but I believe the article there is an angel not the angel. Normally the article matters. This same word is used in Luke 1. This angel is identified as Gabriel. The angel of the lord is normally set apart some how.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Pliny the younger

Epistuale 10

"These accusations spread (as is usually the case) from the mere fact of the matter being investigated and several forms of the mischief came to light. A placard was put up, without any signature, accusing a large number of persons by name. Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of tbe Gods, and who finally cursed Christ�none of which acts, it is said, those who are really Christians can be forced into performing�these I thought it proper to discharge. Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twentyfive years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the Gods, and cursed Christ.

They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food..."

So he again we have a hostile source. Pliny is basically writing Emperor Trajan to find out how he should deal with Christians. The part that mentions Christ is bolded. The context of this sentence implies they sing to someone who was not a god as a god. Again a reference to the mans existence in relation to his followers. All thru out antiquity we find that Christians are related to a man crucified under Pontius Pilate.

www.vroma.org...

Mara Bar-Serapion makes these casual remarks in a letter to his son from prison around 70 AD:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given

Here he mentions Jesus along with other people from antiquity.

Babylonian Talmud
"AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM etc. This implies, only immediately before [the execution], but not previous thereto.33 [In contradiction to this] it was taught: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu34 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!35 —"

Josephus son of Matthias descended from the priestly order of the Jehoiarib, which was the first of the twenty four-orders of Priests in the Temple in Jerusalem, better known as Flavius Josephus:

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

sacred-texts.com...

AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23) who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa],

www.sacred-texts.com...

Now the first portion of this text is debated among. To my knowledge no one questions this off the cuff comment about Christ when referencing James.

At the source below you can find a reconstruction of the larger passage. I believe the majority of scholars hold the partial authenticity view.

www.bede.org.uk...

Not to mention the James Ossuary a burial box with the inscription “James Son of Joseph Brother of Jesus”:

file.scirp.org...
www.forananswer.org...


There are more but this is all I feel like doing for now enjoy

edit on Wed Aug 17 2016 by DontTreadOnMe because: EXTERNAL QUOTE TAGS ADDED IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS

Man you went from "Mit.edu" (MIT) to "sacred texts.com" .

Not sure those last ones are real historically accurate sites.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I'm talking about the way it looks on the screen. Would you please PLEASE add 'white space' between the text - it is impossible for my eyes to follow. Just, break it up a bit. Please. Pretend it's a video and I can't watch videos. That's what I need.

I can do the actual text, but it has to have empty space on the page. thanks ever so much.

a reply to: WanderingNomadd

I suggest that you research on near death experiences from around the world.
nderf.org...
www.near-death.com...

a reply to: everyonedies

I have. I have read on miracles, near death, unrotting corpses etc... I want proof. Near death can be explained by brain activity, Becoming part of the universe, ghosts etc... Not saying its true but it is as good an explaination as a religious afterlife so not proof.

If God is our parent, cares for us, loves us. 1. Why is he still punishing us for adam and eves mistakes, Not very parent like If I had kids I wouldnt hate their children because my kids were dicks. 2. If I had a kid he could turn out to be a serial murderer I still would'nt send him to burn and scream and be totured and be miserable in endless, eternal agony till the end of time.

a reply to: Woodcarver

a death cult? please, stop. you sound uneducated.

while I'm no fan of the OP, either, because it lacked substance. There's plenty of proof that Jesus was real and did what he said he did. He's either a liar, a madman, or the Son of God. History wouldn't remember a liar or a madman. In fact, there's more proof that Jesus is and was exactly who the Bible says that he was (not to mention, the Bible has never been incorrect. In fact, daily it is proven correct. You hear about that snake with legs they found near the tigris and euphrates [where they think eden was/is?]? What about the fact that they found Noah's ark--and guess what it's ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN and measures to the exact cubit as the Bible describes. OR BEST YET--what about the fact that now, science accepts that there was a GLOBAL FLOOD OF EPIC PROPORTIONS. They once denied that, but the evidence is too plentiful and widespread to deny)--and there's more proof of Jesus than there is of you, yourself. So, good luck. You CANNOT disprove the Bible. I think there's plenty of evidence that God is real. I just think you've blinded yourself to it by hardening your heart. Are you real? Prove it.

You need to stop generalizing people. This isn't the crusades and Christianity has everything to do with loving one another and being saved by Jesus. It's about recognizing that everyone is imperfect because we all do bad things (sin). It's about accepting one another and loving each other, anyway. So, while what you say makes me very sad for you, I'm not angry. I want to know, why are you so angry at God?

Your New Atheism is a cult. A religious cult, ironically enough But then, what is a cult? Funny, it has no agreed upon definition because what's defined as a cult depends on the society. You might wanna study religion and anthropology before you make erroneous claims again, mVIII. Otherwise I might just write you another essay I haven't even had to look anything up, yet. Want me to start actually trying to prove you wrong, and provide legitimate sources? I would rather not embarrass you, because you have a brain and I know you're not an idiot. Plus, I don't want to be mean to you. You're just lost. I want to feel compassion for you. And I do. But I don't think you're going to listen to me, so that makes me sad.

Don't you see, though? If I didn't care about you--if I didn't see that you are in pain--I wouldn't be saying anything to you. But you're hurting--that is obvious. And you blame God. You shouldn't. Because God loves you, too. Even if you don't love Him. So, one day you'll see that I'm right. I hope on that day you make the right choice.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Man you went from "Mit.edu" (MIT) to "sacred texts.com" . Not sure those last ones are real historically accurate sites.

Man if you had followed the link you might have found that they simply link to the ancient documents I am quoting . If you want to find them from somewhere other than sacredtexts be my guest but it will say the same thing. The last ones . Are you talking about the James Ossuary? Look at the authors then check up on them if you don't like the paper.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Man you went from "Mit.edu" (MIT) to "sacred texts.com" . Not sure those last ones are real historically accurate sites.

Man if you had followed the link you might have found that they simply link to the ancient documents I am quoting . If you want to find them from somewhere other than sacredtexts be my guest but it will say the same thing. The last ones . Are you talking about the James Ossuary? Look at the authors then check up on them if you don't like the paper.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Man you went from "Mit.edu" (MIT) to "sacred texts.com" . Not sure those last ones are real historically accurate sites.

Man if you had followed the link you might have found that they simply link to the ancient documents I am quoting . If you want to find them from somewhere other than sacredtexts be my guest but it will say the same thing. The last ones . Are you talking about the James Ossuary? Look at the authors then check up on them if you don't like the paper.

The translationn is what matters.

a reply to: rukia

There's plenty of proof that Jesus was real and did what he said he did.

Not outside of the Bible, there isn't.

He's either a liar, a madman, or the Son of God. History wouldn't remember a liar or a madman.

Or, the Jesus story is an allegorical myth.

In fact, there's more proof that Jesus is and was exactly who the Bible says that he was (not to mention, the Bible has never been incorrect.

Okay, now you're just being obtuse.

You hear about that snake with legs they found near the tigris and euphrates [where they think eden was/is?]?

A mutant snake? A lizard?

What about the fact that they found Noah's ark--and guess what it's ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN and measures to the exact cubit as the Bible describes. OR BEST YET--what about the fact that now, science accepts that there was a GLOBAL FLOOD OF EPIC PROPORTIONS.

No. Just no.

a reply to: rukia

not to mention, the Bible has never been incorrect.

Funniest thing i've read all day...

What about the fact that they found Noah's ark--and guess what it's ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN and measures to the exact cubit as the Bible describes.

And its likely not said ark... Theres no evidence of it, only elaborate hoaxes... because the government in the area won't let people up there to investigate

OR BEST YET--what about the fact that now, science accepts that there was a GLOBAL FLOOD OF EPIC PROPORTIONS. They once denied that, but the evidence is too plentiful and widespread to deny)-

LOL... where are you getting your "facts"... Ken ham?

Answers in Genesis? or Ron Wyatt?

Science certainly does not accept a global flood story... many local floods through out history... but theres not a shred of evidence of a global flood.... anywhere


that post was supposed to be a joke right...

"jesus" is a just a western(ized) name. .. the myth of such being is internationally interpreted, is worldwide and as ancient as the wonders of the world."

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

THIS IS WHAT RAGGEDY MAN said to you:

You know, its like bashing your head on a wall, they dont know the truth
I had 30 pages going asking for empirical evidence from all sorts of people -- including agnostics, believers, scientists, and atheists -- for evolution, many atheists promised they had it would show it, made it clear they knew empirical evidence existed
No one showed any, 30 plus pages and all talk

What a load of crap.

That is a lie. He got plenty of evidence that he spent 30 pages REFUSING to accept.
AKA Trolling.

Denying that something is evidence does not make it NOT EVIDENCE. Pretending (smugly) to be smarter than everyone and that every source they provide is garbage is the tactic of a juvenile. RaggedyMan was SHOWN EVIDENCE, and is being lazy, deceptive, and manipulative. It's a real shame.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

He doesn't have to convince me that evolutionary theory isn't what it is cracked up to be. I am well aware of the fact that if the theory is going to stick around a new mechanism needs to be found. Now please note. I did not say evolution cannot happen or that it did not happen. I simply said science needs some new discoveries.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: windword

What? That Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnation of the Angel of the Lord? There is no Jewish tradition that says that "The Messiah" would be the incarnate of the Angel of the Lord.

Alan Segal is a Jew and argues in the "Two powers of Heaven" was a Jewish belief up until the second century and dates back around 200 B.C. You can read the whole book online free.

Alan Segal was a Jew and rejected this belief himself, but made this argument none the less. Micahel Heiser extended on his work in his dissertation.

I really thing you would enjoy that Michael Heiser video he give a crap ton of references in their and explains the Hebrew language. He has a PH.d in Hebrew. He knows his stuff, imo.


Take with salt:

jewsforjesus.org...

Just to show you the Messianic Jewish side.

Those are all Christian sites.. Almost no practicing Jews convert. Christianity is laughable to them.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Science guarantees new discoveries.

What does the Bible do for advancement of knowledge, again?

Oh. Wait ----

yeah.

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[THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK]

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Evolution is really not up for debate among intelligent, educated adults. Because it's a thing. Not a "maybe" or "suppose"... no. It's real.
Pretending that evidence isn't evidence is petulant. Disingenuous. Juvenile.
Tiresome.
TEDIOUS.

So, you might keep that in mind. If, that is, you want to be able to have dialogues with other intelligent people. Because asking for a conversation and then pretending you don't understand the other person's point is kinda immature. And extremely annoying. And comes off as desperate. (Not saying you did that - just a general feedback kind of remark.)

Try to connect the neurons, please. Acknowledge the cognitive dissonance. The Bible does not make sense as a "take it literally" document.
It doesn't. And it never will.

But hey, if it's the only thing that keeps people from acting out in homicidal rampages or violent violation of the rights of others ---- then, fine.
I think it's fine if it is that - a tool that keeps otherwise out-of-control individuals in check. Sad that it's needed, but - whatever.

Better for them to believe they'll melt in hot lava if they hurt others.