Why Hillary?

a reply to: Puppylove

Look here's something you are going to have to get right with. The "oligarchy" or whatever you want to call it isn't going to go away. It doesn't matter what party you vote for (republican, democrat, or third party), rich people with way too much money to spend will ALWAYS exist. They will ALWAYS have interests that don't align with the people, but at the same time there will be others with interests that DO align. So you can preach me your rhetoric about "us versus them" but it's going to fall on deaf ears because I'm not naive enough to believe in this silly "oligarchy" thing.

Yea there are things that happen in this country that suck and shouldn't happen. Sometimes (or many times) that is due to some rich asshole taking advantage of the system, but that just means we need to fix the hole the person took advantage. It doesn't mean we need to destroy the whole damn thing and rebuild it. That's retarded.

To be honest, you don't know what it's like to live in an oligarchy.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

To fix the hole they took advantage of we need to get people in that work for us and not them, it's that simple. Which means first making third parties viable, then building one meant to be temporary with one major function, fixing those holes.

Asking the people who are in the pockets of those using those holes, for whom get advantages in forms of massive bribery for having those holes there is just plain stupid.

It's like me handing you a hammer and asking you to nail your hand to the wall. It's dumb, no one is going to harm themselves. Which is what you're expecting when you think the fully entrenched republican and democratic party will work against their own personal interests. They are immune to punishment, there's no reason for them to make any changes.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Krazysh0t

To fix the hole they took advantage of we need to get people in that work for us and not them, it's that simple. Which means first making third parties viable, then building one meant to be temporary with one major function, fixing those holes.

No FIRST you need to trust the people you are electing. There isn't enough trust these days. We expect too much and when we don't receive that we call foul. Yet many times we refuse to even consider if it was even humanly possible for such promises to be obtained. Another problem is that these days compromise is seen as failure. So if you compromise you are therefore distrustful.

Your rhetoric just rings hollow considering that no matter who we throw at this problem, people such as yourself will find ways to distrust them. It happens ALL the time. Hell the very fact you are politician scars people's trust. So no, my answer to what we first need to do is apply some more trust in our fellow man. Before that nothing will be done.

Asking the people who are in the pockets of those using those holes, for whom get advantages in forms of massive bribery for having those holes there is just plain stupid.

It's like me handing you a hammer and asking you to nail your hand to the wall. It's dumb, no one is going to harm themselves. Which is what you're expecting when you think the fully entrenched republican and democratic party will work against their own personal interests. They are immune to punishment, there's no reason for them to make any changes.

This is a lie though. We've seen time and again where politicians get outed for corruption and lose their careers. Here's an example. Just because what we want doesn't always occur doesn't mean the system is broken beyond fixing.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

For a sexting scandal, that's not the kind of corruption we're talking about, and honestly I now what what he was doing, because for that to happen, he most likely stepped on the wrong toes. Blackmail material is pretty much a prerequisite for a position of power, just in case you don't tow the line.

a reply to: Puppylove

It was just an example to show that people DO get taken down for their crimes. It wasn't JUST a sex scandal. It was illegal still. See you are trying to characterize my example to downplay it so you can continue to push the idea of distrust and paranoia. What's the point though? Nothing gets accomplished when you distrust everything.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I don't distrust everything. I know when a system has become corrupt at it's core. We're in a rut, by having a two party system, we've allowed for gradual corruption to hit unprecedented levels. There comes a point where things are too broken to fix easily.

It's a matter of recognizing the system for the state it's in. Over time certain things happen. Corruption, true corruption, is one of them. Both parties are truly corrupt, our system has been made corrupt by that corruption to help maintain and protect that corruption.

You mention corruption, but use a sex scandal, I point that out, because the kind of corruption we are talking about is pushing the system more and more to benefit the rich, and harm the rest of us. The kind of corruption people are talking about is nothing to do with that. Yes the sex scandal was illegal but it's not harming people on the grand scale that passing laws to help and benefit the elite and harm the many does. Those are the things they get away with, the things that will never change by voting the same two parties entrenched in that corruption.

Sex scandals, stuff like that, it's....

The things in that category are used to get rid of undesirables, often by the corrupt themselves. You're not playing ball, so we'll destroy you now, and since you no longer have our protection it will actually stick.

Unlike the things that bounce off Teflon Hillary. She's very well entrenched and protected. Were she to actually go against the system, to try and do the right thing, that protection would be gone and she'd be burnt to a crisp.

Never mind, I'm just a paranoid delusional, nutter, right? Everything is hunky dory with the two party system, keep supporting it, everything will work out and change someday. They'll grow a heart.

a reply to: Puppylove

So I can also bring up Bernie Madoff too. Sure the penalties for many of these crimes are too light, but that is something we can work to change within the system. I'm not sure what you think you can accomplish by going rogue, but I can tell you it will only result in more harm than good.

everything will work out and change someday. They'll grow a heart.

I don't know about everything working out eventually, but yes someday things WILL change. They always do. That's something you can always rely on. Change.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I am trying to work within the system. Pushing third party to beat the two party system, then pushing a party focused on repealing things like citizens united, and working to make the system more fair towards everyone.

How is that not working within the system?

I believe the two parties are broken, I believe more and more people are waking up, I believe there's a chance we can work to defeat the two party system, using the whole system, the two parties is not an official part of our government, it's not THE law of the US that there must be the Democrat and Republican party and that's it.

Working to tear down those parties, bring in and create another party to undo much of the corrupt laws and regulations put into place by them IS WORKING WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

a reply to: Puppylove

Ok let me try again. Voting third party will only just prevent one of the two major parties from being elected. The ENTIRE system is setup around a two party system. So if you want to change it, you have to break the whole system. This is why I said if you vote third party enough, eventually that third party will just become one of the two major parties.

Sure vote third party, but understand that the idea of a two party system isn't going away any time soon. You really just look like a political hipster going on and on about third parties.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

No the point of getting third parties to be viable is to break everyone away from voting two parties for a bit, it's a chance to do a party reset, which is necessary to implement some of the changes that need to occur, because the other two are too entrenched.

I'm fully aware over time it will fall apart again. It's how corruption works. You need to reset now and then, corruption builds, and reset. We can't just stick with the cycle of ever growing corruption though. The system is broken right now.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Unlike the things that bounce off Teflon Hillary. She's very well entrenched and protected. Were she to actually go against the system, to try and do the right thing, that protection would be gone and she'd be burnt to a crisp.

Yes, she is deep in the system and if she went rogue, they would eject her... but I disagree that a person who plays within the system is automatically corrupt and unopen to change. Her picking up Bernie's cause to get money out of politics or efforts like tuition-free college, or healthcare as a right are powerful messages that inspire the hearts of people. Those ideas get embedded deep. It inspires the hearts of other politicians who would support those ideas. The people are the power.

Conversely, when you have a candidate inspiring hatred, anger, racism or bigotry-- even if that candidate has none of those qualities-- to feed those feelings in the hearts and minds of millions is equally powerful in a much more negative way.

So, I support a candidate who has a real shot at the White House, who speaks of good ideas that benefit normal people and struggling families and feeds positive inspiration in the hearts of millions.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

The money out of politics, which has to happen most, will not happen voting two party. It needs to be a party who's only chance to remain a party is to make a difference for the people.

The republicans and democrats have no fear of losing their power if they don't play ball with the people. We let them get away with everything.

Is why we need a third party to win, we need to show the parties they are mortal and not gods. We need to draw blood.

a reply to: Puppylove

Sanders came a lot closer than Johnson will. And that was on a democratic ticket. If you're an idealist that wants to create real change, the exposure right now is democrat or republican - that's what gets you in the game. You can play an indy hand like Bernie did on a democratic ticket and gain a ton more votes than an actual independent ticket... and Bernie's impact was so great it transformed Hillary's platform.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: spiritualzombie

Is why we need a third party to win, we need to show the parties they are mortal and not gods. We need to draw blood.

This makes me smile. I don't want to actually convince you of anything I'm saying. I think you should keep the torch high demanding the truest of ideals. I just want to stand up for the good people fighting the good fight despite the fact that they may have a D or R next to their name. I don't think their efforts are in vain just as I don't think 3rd party is either.

a reply to: Puppylove

Just fyi, voting third party has a better chance of destroying the Republican party at this moment than it does of destroying the Democrat party.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

One down, one to go. I see no reason to save the republican party.

I'm fully aware that the establishment is putting all it's eggs in the Democrat basket. But voting democrat isn't going to help fight that, and voting republican is just fighting to keep the status quo.

a reply to: Puppylove

Well good luck. I don't see the appeal of voting third party in this election. Neither of them will be elected and I actively DON'T want one of the two major candidates to be elected. So I feel that I can't afford to waste my vote on a third party candidate this year. Maybe 4 years later if the Republicans (or if a party can replace them like the Libertarians) fields a better candidate I'll be more open to doing the third party thing again.

Just fyi, my guy was Gary Johnson in 2012.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

Yeah, and he got robbed for his efforts by the democrats, in addition just to be in the position rigged so he could never win, he had to agree to be willing to sell out his ideals when he lost in the unwinnable rigged election. I gave the D's a chance this election cycle. They ruined ever getting that chance again by what they did to Bernie.

Bernie proved to me that, the only way to fix this is third party, because the two parties won't allow otherwise and will cheat to make sure of that.

Why Hillary?
Because we all want to be politically relevant and are supported by delusional, illogical, and history deficient public majority which is promoted by a pretentious mainstream media of 140 characters or less that holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by clean the end!

a reply to: Puppylove

I think Bernie also proved that a man with good ideas and a huge following can dramatically impact mainstream politics. You can wait forever for the big dramatic change of a third party coming in and miraculously gaining enough support from the people in Washington to change the whole system... Or get there slowly and steadily through small changes demanded by the ever evolving will of the people and those candidates who push that progress forward one step at a time.