There is no way to proof that Karma exists...

originally posted by: OneGoal
a reply to: peppycat

There is always a bigger fish.

I have seen enough to know, heard enough, and conceptulized to the point where i can ascertain that the Universe and its mechanics have a way of doing things, in time, things that seem incredibly...coincidental.

Karma, if it exists here, is, imho, fairly distorted in many cases. As to why...subjectivity and less...compassionate forms of judgement remain issues.

Synchronicity. 2 points in space time 3D+1T (it can be higher D but that is another story) connected to each other. As particles can be connected without the distance in between, 2 states of part of creation can be connected without the time in between. It is all about the under laying probability field that manifest the energized state of creation.

But do not ask me to visualize it since it becomes very complex for this brain to handle when I try to keep track of the events even in my life. And if we want clear objective measuring we would need a quantum probability field detector that can measure the state in every measuring point in real time for a specific area sensing fluctuations in the field that would keep track of every particle including entanglement.

Double slit experiment is a start. But it is like ENIAC compared to today:s computer. Not very advanced compared to what comes after but a starting point.

a reply to: icyboy771z

originally posted by: icyboy771z
a reply to: Sahabi

Yes, that's what I mean. If you say, have a fetish of killing little animals and went to proceed to kill
a kitten once. You many never get noticed or caught and nothing happens to you. People who
believe Karma would argue that the person would be a kitten in his next life and killed the same way but
there is no way to prove it. Let me ask this question to the proponents, who will be the person who would kill you
if you were to reborn as a kitten? Would that person accumulate bad karma too, or be alleviated
from it because he is the enforcer in the grand scheme of things? Also, this contradicts with free will.
What if that supposed "enforcer" refuses to kill the kitten (You) because it hurts his conscience? Then
wouldn't you have escaped your previous bad karma?

Through the understanding of universal and existential interconnectedness, unity, and oneness,... you are simultaneously both the perpetrator and the victim. What you do to others, you are doing to yourself.

originally posted by: Sahabi
Through the understanding of universal and existential interconnectedness, unity, and oneness,... you are simultaneously both the perpetrator and the victim. What you do to others, you are doing to yourself.

How come, then, if I throw a pie in somebody else's face, they are the person needing to wash their face clean while my face doesn't need to be washed?

Even if you want to look at the topic from a non-physical viewpoint: how come when somebody else is feeling sad and crying I do not necessarily feel sad or cry as well?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

All of existence is utterly interconnected through elemental, atomic, and subatomic co-origination (stellar accretion, singularity, etc.), and through the infinite webs of cause-and-effect. Nothing is truly separate, all is connected and co-dependent on something/everything else.

The other person is 'you', and you are they. There is a oneness of shared existence, shared experience, and shared consciousness. What you are doing to another, you are actually doing to yourself, as you and the other are one. They are another manifestation of you, and you are another manifestation of them.

Non-physically, you do feel for others. Mirror Neurons physiologically hardware us to empathize and feel what others are experiencing.

Karma is the same as do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Be a dick to someone today, in the future someone will be a dick to you.

a reply to: icyboy771z

Karma isn't a conscience entity, nor is it a tit-for-tat system of "you killed a cat, so you will become a cat and be killed in the next life," as you seem to think. Karma is a process of gradual purification, experienced over numerous incarnations. For those who believe in karma, the process works more like this:

First, just to make visualization easier, imagine that all of your positive karma is represented by white stones, while all of your negative karma is represented by black stones.

So, for example, lets say that you get married and live a long life. If, during that time, you stayed loyal to your wife and never cheated on her, then you acquire a white stone. If, during that time, you abused your wife, cheated on her, and slandered her to others, then you acquire a black stone. If you stayed loyal to her but secretly harbored resentment in your heart, then you acquire some amount of both colored stones.

As another example, lets say that you decided to become a priest for the Hindu gods. If, over the course of your life, you remained devout and faithful, praying to the Gods and Goddesses, and using their wisdom and spiritual power to make the lives of others better, then you've been dutiful in life and acquire a white stone. If, however, you used your position as a priest to abuse the faithful, to acquire riches for yourself, and lived an opulent life without a care for your fellow man, then you've been neglectful of your duty and you'll acquire a black stone. If you lived a conflicted life, at times doubting, at times full of faith, and at all times trying your best to live a god-fearing life, but not always succeeding, then you'll acquire some stones of both colors.

These examples can be extrapolated to every aspect of life. Are you charitable to your fellow man, faithful to your wife, do you raise your family well, are you conscientious of the world and your impact on it? Depending on how you behave in life, and the decisions that you make, you'll acquire an ever-growing collection of white and black stones throughout your lifetime.

Upon your death, then, you'll encounter the deity Yama. Yama is a special deity. For visualization's sake, imagine that he is sitting in a sparsely decorated place; a simple room with nothing more than a scale on a table and two chairs: one for you, one for him. In front of Yama is a collection of all the stones that you've earned over the course of your lifetime, both the white and the black. One by one Yama separates them, placing the white stones on one side of his scale, the black stones on the other. At the very end of this process he releases the counterweights and lets the scale balance itself. There are two possibilities available at first:

1. You have more white stones than black stones
2. You have more black stones than white stones

In the first case Yama judges that you are on a noble path. He places you into a kind of "Heaven" for a little while, where you wait to reincarnate onto Earth again. When you do, you begin life in a slightly better position: a higher social caste, or to wealthier or more philanthropic parents, etc.

In the second case Yama judges that you are on an ignoble path. He places you into a kind of "Hell" for a little while, where you wait to reincarnate onto Earth again. When you do, you begin life in a slightly worse position: a lower social caste, or to a family of thieves and scoundrels, etc.

In both cases your life is yours to live again. You have free will to follow the path you've been born into, or to change your lot and strive for a more noble/ignoble route. Once again though, as you progress, all of your deeds create more black and white stones. When you die this second time you once more come to Yama's sparse room, where he has his scale and the collection of stones reflecting your life. Once more he sorts out the stones, removes the counterweight, and allows them to balance out. And, as before, he places you in "Heaven" or "Hell" for a brief period before you reincarnate a third time.

Now, the purpose of karma, is that gradually, over time, over dozens of lifetimes, the amount of black and white stones you collect will diminish, until finally you've collected so few of either color, that the scale simply doesn't weigh anything at all. At this point you've lived a sinless life and achieved moksha, or have attained enlightenment and reached a state of nirvana, which means that the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth no longer applies to you: Yama can't place you in a Heaven or Hell, and he can't justify further reincarnations.

At this point you "escape" from the so-called "Wheel of Saṃsāra," and since you're no longer subject to reincarnation you move on to... well, I don't really know. I'm still living an incarnated life, so contemplation of what an incarnation-less life is, is beyond my ability.

Now, there's also a whole bunch of watered-down, and, frankly, inaccurate "versions" of karma floating around. They're especially prevalent in the western hemisphere, where bite-sized spirituality and trendy religions are always topical. But if you're looking to "debunk" karma, then you have to understand the whole process, according to the religion which it emerges out of first, and not just set up a straw-man made of inaccurate information that can be easily knocked over.


~ Wandering Scribe

a reply to: icyboy771z

Sounds like a misunderstanding of Karma. It's not the idea that if you do good things you will be rewarded and those who do bad things will be punished. If you do good things, and keep company with others who do good things, those good deeds will eventually be reflected back at you. If the deeds you do, make the world a better place, you now have a better world to live in. The same is true in reverse. Punishment for any specific deed won't come back to you, but on the macro level your actions make the world worse, and therefore worse things will come back to you eventually.

a reply to: Aazadan

Isn't that basically saying that if your net karma is positive, you can expect to reside in a positive world, whereas if your net karma is negative, you can expect to reside in a negative world?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

No, because the way society as a whole acts has more impact than a single individual.

a reply to: Aazadan

Does that include taking into account the behaviour of non-humans too? Because, if it does, then the statement "the way society as a whole acts has more impact than a single individual" kind of means zero...

What exactly is the point in striving for a good, fair and just world when you cannot influence the behaviour of non-humans in this collective vision of yours?

a reply to: icyboy771z

There cannot be proof. If there was , everyone would be good . There would be no criminals , no bad deeds, etc.

Providing proof is the worst way to get disciples or followers. All you get is people who are disconnected with their heart and only join in because of their survival instinct.

Therefore, any system (magic, Karma, Christ, etc) relies on choice and freewill . The choice to believe or not to.

As with other systems. the Karma system also asks that you decide whether to believe or not (no proof presented). Do you believe in Karma and reincarnation or do you beliwve that all of us will be resurrected after death and that we only live once , die and get resurected (eg Christian religion).

How do you decide in the absence of proof. The answer is simple and close to home.Your heart will tell you. In other words ,the correct path for you will be heartfelt . If you find yourself looking for proof, then you have wordered too far away from the path.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Does that include taking into account the behaviour of non-humans too? Because, if it does, then the statement "the way society as a whole acts has more impact than a single individual" kind of means zero...

What exactly is the point in striving for a good, fair and just world when you cannot influence the behaviour of non-humans in this collective vision of yours?

What non humans have an influence over our lives?

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

Greetings. Your stony parable is quite similar to the way Buddhists are taught to imagine karma.

Unfortunately, it is based on the presumption of rebirth. And this assumption is just what the OP is asking you to prove.

I have edited his words slightly to make the sense clearer in the quote below:

Karma devotees will say, ‘Hey, karma is not linear and it will find a way, whether in this life or the next. This is the reason why some bad people are still able to live good lives: they pay their dues the next life.’

Well, my question to these devotees is, how exactly do you prove that? If they can't prove it in a person's lifetime they can just conveniently use the excuse that it will happen in the next! Somehow, they speak it like fact even though it is just a belief!

Did god personally came down and gave a divine revelation or something? If not how the heck can they believe it to be concrete besides just a personal belief?

It’s a valid question, and one to which Buddhism does, in fact, provide an answer. Unfortunately, accepting that answer also demands faith — in the enlightened knowledge of Sakyamuni. I don’t have such faith, so I shall leave it to you to provide the Buddhist answer, and to justify your belief in it.

Good luck.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Isn't that basically saying that if your net karma is positive, you can expect to reside in a positive world, whereas if your net karma is negative, you can expect to reside in a negative world?

Self-righteous Buddhists interpret it so, just as self-righteous Calvinists do.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Does that include taking into account the behaviour of non-humans too? Because, if it does, then the statement "the way society as a whole acts has more impact than a single individual" kind of means zero...

Well, it does mean zero. Societies don’t behave. They evolve through the behaviour of humans. Who are individuals.

Your point, however, is taken: who bears the karmic burden for what Westerners call ‘acts of God’?

This is the Hindu-Buddhist equivalent of theodicy: the moral contradiction in their belief system that implies that evil is the natural or divinely mandated order of things, and goodness is a futile exception to the general rule.

a reply to: Astyanax

I'm neither a Buddhist, nor do I accept karma. I just felt that the OP was attacking a straw-man version of the doctrine, and didn't feel that was the right way to go about it. As a tenet of Hinduism and Buddhism, of course karma is a belief, and you can't prove a belief, which is why they rely on faith from their adherents, not facts.

Even your amending of his original post is still a straw-man though. Karma is not about getting your just desserts, now or in the next life. Karma is about gradually, over numerous lifetimes, purging yourself of sin and corruption. It has nothing to do with reward and punishment, and everything to do with personal responsibility.

As I said above though, it's not my doctrine, and not one of my beliefs. If you're trying to dismantle it though, you have to dismantle it according to its own definition, not some superficial version that the OP created in his/her head.


~ Wandering Scribe

Karma means cause and effect, so when viewed that way it most certainly can be prooven. Throw a rock through a glass window and film it and there you have both sides of karma on camera.a reply to: icyboy771z

I believe the concept of karma to be a religious construct. It seems to be all about hope of a better life than the one you are living now. This idea flourished in the hindu and buddhist models. This also led to the caste system, which teaches that it is wrong to help those who are being punished by god with poverty or illness. That people are given their station in life by divine appointment.

Karma is a weak person's hope that their oppressor will be dealt with by the universe.

Karma is a vain person's hope that they will be rewarded for their
kind deeds and labor.



a reply to: icyboy771z

Karma always reminded me of Newton's 3rd law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. But, does this apply to human decision? That is something you have to observe on your own.