Medieval Blacks & Racism

Someone should ask the Chinese how hard it is to forgive, they were forced to build a wall.

they don't base their entire culture on it, and who do they blame? Some emperor who has been dead for thousands of years. It doesn't seem to bother them much...maybe when they start taking out cops at random we can assume otherwise.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I agree and I'm conversant with the problems during the period of abolition on both sides of the Atlantic. My own confusion arises when I read what you and others have put and yet I can find evidence of extremely well to do Blacks before after and during Abolition such as Sarah Forbes Bonetta and others which it seems weren't affected somehow by this hatred of the perceived sub humans as they were allegedly referred to. Its almost as if there were 2 different sets of blacks...perhaps there were but something very fundamental changed

I am merely trying to put to rest many percieved notions of blacks throughout history, whereby both blacks & whites often when seeing a picture of a black person from say the 16th century automatically think must be a slave such as I admit to thinking, or perhaps see a medieval picture of a black trumpeter at Henry VIII's court and think automatically he was forced there kidnapped taken as a slave when it seems that is not the case.

We seem to have developed the thinking that all blacks were slaves that all Jews are holocaust victims just like all muslims are terrorists, and I very much believe this is intentional although obviously I can't prove itm but I think in the case of the black American issue, its most definitely intended to keep them "down" and from fulfilling their obvious potential which is why History is so sparse on the positives including the people I've mentioned in the OP

a reply to: samerulesapply

Poor people of any colour, anywhere in the world have next to no chance of getting out of their place in life. It's there in India, Africa and China and everywhere else.

That's a truth in life.

Yet there are other factors in play too. For example, black people in the US were mostly confined to their own areas in the southern States and even in the big northern cities. This was a way of life until the 1960s.

The attitudes that drove the segregation were based on the beliefs that black people were different to white people and deserved their station in life. From the inside of these segregated places existed the view that they were being held back by unfairness in the system. These are true points right?

In that context, it's hard to 'GTF over something' when the 'something' is intangible and dictates the options in your life. Racism creates racism or maybe it's easier to contemplate the possibility that prejudice drives prejudice?

a reply to: Edumakated

This is exactly what I'm trying to show and get rid of the pre-conceived notions that all blacks throughout time have been victims & slaves when clearly its not true. If they could do it then they can do it now.

Bring back the amazing black medieval composers (half of whom you would not even know were black except for the odd painting) the philosophers, the academics. Take pride your the REST of your wonderful history which covered the globe even more so that us nasty colonists..point out to people the great things you've done as a people! Mistakes have been made...mistakes will always be made but that shouldn't stop anyone from achieving their absolute potential and having some pride in themselves their history and their culture

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

I see what you're saying overall--that racism is a learned behavior. And you're right, because I fully believe that none of us are born with the idea that we are better than anyone else (or full of hate) just based on the color of their skin. People are taught that (or narcissism and ignorance leads to that).

But I do think that nationalism/tribalism has a hand in racism, as does (and probably most dramatically in modern times) the slave trade, which pretty much institutionalized the belief that skin color determined one's superiority over another. The belief that someone can own someone else--as deplorable an idea as that is--is a big, massive part of it.

But that said, I think that we are currently living in a society that, overall, is actively forgetting such nonsense. Yes, racism still exists on all sides of the issue, but as a whole, we are so much less racist a society than we were even 50 years ago, whether people choose to accept that or not. I mean, compare where we are now and where our society was 200 years ago--it's really night and day when it comes to societal acceptance of racist beliefs.

I think in the course of human history (and future), racism will be a cyclical thing, unfortunately, because when societies are capable of moving past atrocities like racism and slavery, so are they able to forget the terrible events and fall back into them. Who know, though...maybe I'm wrong about that. I hope that I am.

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport
It's been observed that Spanish America was much more relaxed about intermarriage between black and white than Anglo-Saxon America.
I wonder if this has to do with the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism?
Is it that the Protestant colonists already had a bad conscience about holding humans as slaves, and the only way they could justify it in their own minds was to develop the idea that black people were inferior, less human?
Whereas the Catholics of Latin America had not escaped the more medieval view that "slavery happens, no shame involved in holding slaves or being a slave".

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

I think we're at cross-purposes and it's to be expected. Not because of our views...it's only so easy to misunderstand people on the internet

a reply to: Kandinsky

But that is true of most of us...you think I was born with amazing opportunities?

I lived in slums in Edinburgh and Glasgow...nobody was caring about us. There wasn't even an acknowledgement, it was our lot in life.

Who do we blame? Nobody, what's the point? Sometimes forgiveness is the best option not just for those you 'believe' persecuted you, but for yourself.

I agree with your points, I'm sure it was bad at one point. But you get to a stage where it's no longer about that...what happened in your past isn't holding you or your people back, but the fact that you're still living in the past.

Sometimes people ha ve to help themselves.

a reply to: samerulesapply

I guess in the end we're all slaves in some way, it's about perspective. I grew up in ghettos but I know some people who were carefree, in fact i was one of them until a point.

We didn't have activists constantly reminding or telling us how we're born into a world that is practically devoid of opportunity thus it dind't turn is into haters. We made do...we didn't want anyone to blame.

It is what it is, it's what you make of it that's important...people need to let go. Deal with the issues affecting you now, instead of focusing on issues that affected others, years ago.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It could well be yup. But ff you consider that the Irish transported to the USA Antigua and Barbados by Cromwell were all Catholic it kinda makes that null & void. Of course its well documented just what the English did to the Irish during the 1600's and the severe and brutal torture they endured and the separation of families with over 100,000 irish children torn from their parents and sold to the West Indies and its my view and others that the notion of non rebellious non catholic tainted Africans made a far better investment than the Irish "dogs" which is why, I understand, the Black Revisionists believe the Africans were in truth treated better as they had more value and therefore more commercially lucrative.

But...even prior to this point in history the movement of blacks throughout Europe seemed to have halted and African blacks appear to have returned to their tribal roots with multiple wars & feuds and as a result a lack of expansion and this is something I have no answer for as history it seems doesn't have enough information on the subject

a reply to: Kandinsky

It is indeed....I should use more emoticons lol

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport



I generally stay out of these threads because miscommunication is a SoB.

I just wanted to add - there are people with this same mindset here in Scotland.

They blame everything on the English, on Westminster. They wind me right up, I don't care if they have a valid point - no amount of moaning about it ever changed squat.

To me they're pretty much the same, skin tone is irrelevant. They're bitter, and cannot let it go. I'm unpopular when it comes to my political views because I'm of the opinion that the people of England, the citizens, are just as bad off as us. I don't blame anyone for anything...it's not the English peoples fault.

But some have that mentality - they're no different, we're not doing well because of this and that, him and her...when the truth is I ain't doing well because of me. I ain't doing well, most likely, because I have an inherently oppressed mindset, everything is against me.

there are enough people, from every race, country, of eevery nationality, that are doing well enough for us to realise that the only thing keeping most of us down in this modern world is ourselves.

These out-dated argument simply allow people to stagnate and shift the blame onto all else but themselves, it needs to stop. People need to start being honest. It would be easy for a Scot to play this game, of blaming everything on England...a little too easy.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
It could well be yup. But ff you consider that the Irish transported to the USA Antigua and Barbados by Cromwell were all Catholic it kinda makes that null & void.

My suggested theory depended on the slave-owners being Protestant, and therefore having a gospel-motivated bad conscience, and therefore evolving racist theory to get round that.

But...even prior to this point in history the movement of blacks throughout Europe seemed to have halted and African blacks appear to have returned to their tribal roots with multiple wars & feuds and as a result a lack of expansion and this is something I have no answer for as history it seems doesn't have enough information on the subject

I suggest that the earlier mediaeval contacts with Africa were a side-effect of the crusading in the Mediterranean. Once those wars died down, black people were not being taken into Europe. Check the dates of the crusades and that might provide the clue.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Clearly you don't believe as I that this whole current situation is being cleverly manipulated then? Do you not feel that the blacks of today currently protesting chanting and spewing hatred should take charge of their lives, live up to some of their superb role models, improve their lot themselves and stop the blame game/victimhood? Do you not think that these actions hold them back severely?

Sounds like what she is saying is that someone must pay, maybe with blood. But see this is an entire philosophy in itself, that some want to infuse into a "final solution" to square up with whitey.

Why does no one cite all the non-white professional sports millionaires existent today? Personally, I've never even SEEN more than $15k firsthand in my ENTIRE LIFE, and I'm approaching double nickels. My 'white priviledge' has been to live with at least three teeth which have needed extracting for several YEARS because I cannot afford a dentist visit. Oh, and let's not mention that one had to be RICH AS HELL to afford slaves when slavery existed in the U.S.; in other words, POOR WHITES NOT ONLY COULD NOT AFFORD THEM, BUT WERE OFTEN SLAVES THEMSELVES! The PTB of the time 'prettied-up' the expression by calling it 'indentured servitude', but just as a 2-year prison sentence can become life if the warden doesn't like you, so did the 'servitude'.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm not sure on that though considering the Protestants were utterly annihilating Catholics at every turn I can't see gospel bad conscience coming into it really. Sorry I'm tired and sunburnt lol but what do you mean by racist theory? As in the blacks are sub human so it doesn't matter?

a reply to: WAstateMosin

I know your pain...I had a tooth, it went bad.

It turned all black, I couldn't afford to have it extracted...but I was embarassed about it, having no money, so I pretended the dentist refused to take it out because it was black.

That he'd happily extract it if it were white...an illigical argument since a nice white tooth wouldn't need extracting, but peopl ejust agreed and tolerated my stupid assertion, because I threatened to shoot dentists.

a reply to: WAstateMosin

I know just what you mean lol

However, it would appear from reading that these role models & successful blacks are considered sell outs! Kind of a catch 22 there. It has even been said that blacks identifying with whites is a form of mental illness.

This whole charade makes a serious mockery of all the activists that went before them and obtained their current freedoms

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport
It's been observed that Spanish America was much more relaxed about intermarriage between black and white than Anglo-Saxon America.
I wonder if this has to do with the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism?
Is it that the Protestant colonists already had a bad conscience about holding humans as slaves, and the only way they could justify it in their own minds was to develop the idea that black people were inferior, less human?
Whereas the Catholics of Latin America had not escaped the more medieval view that "slavery happens, no shame involved in holding slaves or being a slave".

The Anglican influence. Not really protestant and sectarian like is was in the Old North. Folks so very often like to talk about the Southern church influence and forget about the Northern Church influence. Abolition was born out of the Northern Church influence. You could even say that the war itself was broken down along these lines. Northern christians were not running around preaching race superiority, being primarily Celtic had already had a bellyful of Saxton/Angle race superiority that drove their subjugation of Wales, Ireland ect. Folks don't consider that 75% of the white folks you see daily do not speak their native language.