Not a Believer, But Jesus was a Great Teacher

a reply to: pthena

I think any "true" (I use that term extremely loosely) believers simply "know" that they don't belong here and the way things are right now, are not how they're "supposed" to be, but it is as He wills. Scripture is to be understood in the context that each of us is called. Not a word can be understood outside ones own context.

You could say that the "Spirit" is that which allows us to "know" certain things. Just as I have no good reason to believe in my Father; I do it because I love Him. Why do I love Him? I don't have a good answer. My life is insignificant with a lot of bad experiences and circumstances I can't unsee or undo, but I love Him anyway. I know He's there and has some kind of plan for me, so I wait and pray.

Does it make me a lunatic because I can't backup my belief with scripture? Does it matter that I might make connections that may be logical to me, but inconsequential to you? In the end, I don't think studying scripture has led anyone closer to God. It is my belief that we either love Him or we don't. What causes one to love something that one cannot touch, see, taste, smell, or hear? I believe that's the million dollar question. I'll say it again, I have no good reason to believe in my Father in heaven, I just do. The thought of forsaking Him churns my soul in an indescribable way...I just love Him; it makes no sense.

As far as the OP is concerned. I don't believe every word in the Bible is God-breathed, but mans paraphrase. Did Christ actually say those things, in the context that's given? I don't know and there's no way for me to know. All I do know, is that certain things resonate and others don't. That's my compass. It's human, but I am who I am, until He says otherwise.

Luke 14:26

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

I find this very wise since this is a perfect example of loving the potential of a soul to do good but sometimes hating the corruption humanity have created.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Akragon

Correct my friend

Do you leave the something else undefined, or use teachings of Jesus to define it?

Yes... Knowing i don't belong in this screwed up world... But i make the best of what i've been given

I do tend to use his words to define it... Though they are vague on what it might actually be

Yes you clearly do not belong on this level. The mess that this place have become is extreme and I thank you for helping out.

a reply to: pthena

You know you don't belong in this World. How do you know such a thing? Is this some alien exile, or are you a future emigrant to somewhere else?

The same way most believe that they do... belong

so to speak...

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: pthena
. . .

I always believed that Jesus was for everyone and the entire premise of salvation was simply a misunderstanding of the Christian Church. I don't believe Jesus wanted all of this craziness in his name.

God's perspective; Yeshua/Jesus' perspective ON HIS NAME is VERY different from yours.

I believe that all these citations affirm that Father, Abba, Yehovah, and Christ Himself have a very different perspective on the Name of Jesus, Yeshua, than you do.

IIRC, Yeshua/Joshua literally means THE LORD [GOD YEHOVAH] SAVES

Off-hand, I'd say your perspective on HIS NAME is a very hazardous lack of wisdom.

I shall continue to affirm Yehovah's perspective on the matter. I've found it very powerful to do so in my life.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Matthew 18:5
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receives me.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
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Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
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Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
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Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
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Luke 9:48
And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receives me: and whosoever shall receive me receives Him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
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Luke 21:12
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
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Luke 21:17
And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
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John 14:13
And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
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John 14:14
If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. [BoX: I do not believe we've had more than hints of the fulfillment of this verse, yet. I believe I will live to see the day when it IS fulfilled massively, literally and routinely in these END TIMES.]
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John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
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John 15:16
You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, He may give it you.
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John 15:21
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
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John 16:23
And in that day you shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it you.
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John 16:24
Hitherto have you asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
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Acts 9:16
For I will show him [Saul about to become the Apostle Paul] how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
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Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
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Revelation 2:3
And have borne, and had patience, and for my name's sake have laboured, and have not fainted.
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Revelation 2:13
I know your works, and where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is: and you held fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
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Revelation 3:8
I know your works: behold, I have set before you an open door, and no man can shut it: for you have a little strength, and have kept my word, and have not denied my name.
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jesus may have been something special. However, he was extemly naive. His teachings have only brought chaos. Despite his miracles, he was still a fool.

a reply to: blueman12

Not by a trillion light years' worth of distance.

He clearly slices through the confusion over light vs dark; good vs evil . . .

And THAT will virtually always raise a lot of ruckus.

a reply to: NthOther

So you want to pick and choose which parts of what he said suit your beliefs and discard the rest?

Where have I heard that before?

Usually from Christians.

@OP: The best thing Jesus ever said was his repeat of the golden rule.

a reply to: blueman12

You know what
Jesus said to the world what He would say would be seen as foolish
In fact He said the world would hate those who chose to follow Him
So in a way you are exactly right, no argument

It is, if contained to the world we live in it is very foolish

a reply to: Aedaeum

Thank you.

As far as the OP is concerned. I don't believe every word in the Bible is God-breathed, but mans paraphrase. Did Christ actually say those things, in the context that's given? I don't know and there's no way for me to know. All I do know, is that certain things resonate and others don't. That's my compass. It's human, but I am who I am, until He says otherwise.

Would it be correct then to say that your compass (love attachment to Father) neither confirms nor denies particular teachings? That's probably not the best way to express it. Your compass neither confirms nor denies what someone else's compass or construct of theology may be?

a reply to: Akragon

The same way most believe that they do... belong

So there are two hypothetical groups of people.

1) I am at home in this World(Mother, perhaps for some).

2) I am not at home in this World, I will depart for a more perfect home.

Is there a value judgment that you place between one group and another? one is enlightened/one is not, or one tends to selfishness/the other does not, or one is good for the World/the other is not? Those sorts of value judgments. Those are merely examples I can imagine.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I've been seeing this on posts "IIRC", and thinking it was initials for some secret society or something. Looked it up, means, "If I recall correctly".

So you believe the wisdom is in taking the Name?

Luke 21:17
"And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."

So all men hate people who take the Name? Is this true? Can you verify this? And if it's true:

22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Seems like a lose lose situation, at least the potential for one.

You do believe Paul, you aren't a Paul basher like some. So:

1 Corintians 15:13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. 14If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. 15Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn't raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead aren't raised, neither has Christ been raised. 17If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.

So whether Jesus was wise or not depends completely upon a physical resurrection? Is that your view, like Paul's?

originally posted by: blueman12
jesus may have been something special. However, he was extemly naive. His teachings have only brought chaos. Despite his miracles, he was still a fool.

May have been. Yes, may have been.

extemly naïve: There is hearsay evidence (a guy said that a guy heard Jesus say...(what the gospels are)) that Jesus may have had a very limited worldview (significant saved/lost dichotomy, significant Judean/Gentile dichotomy)

His teachings have only brought chaos: As far as I know, he did not write a book, his disciples did not write a book. Evidence suggests that he may have thought he was living in the last generation. Therefore, any blame for chaos in these last several centuries can't be blamed on him, but rather the blame would fall squarely upon people using him as an icon for religious belief and crusade.

he was still a fool: urgent mission driven need to save his people, like right now! (delusion?)

a reply to: pthena

Here's one of my favorites:

Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Nailed it! Lawyers and preachers!

a reply to: Klassified

@OP: The best thing Jesus ever said was his repeat of the golden rule.

I've been thinking a lot about the story of the Hellenized Syro-Phoenician woman's encounter with Jesus.

According to research by Gilad Atzmon, for his book, The Wandering Who: A Study of Jewish Identity Politics these Hellenized Syro-Phoenician occupied much of Galilee in the first century. They would not have been strangers to Jesus, but neighbors.

This is only my own imagination here, so don't take as gospel truth:

Jesus says, "It is not fitting that I take the children's food and throw it to the dogs."
And then to himself he thinks, "What? Why did I say that? This can't be right, can it? No something's wrong here."
The woman says, "But the dogs under the table eat the scraps."

Jesus thinks, "A loophole, thank god for a loophole. I don't have to despise my neighbors"

Anyway: here's a link to the book mentioned.

An investigation of Jewish identity politics and Jewish contemporary ideology using both popular culture and scholarly texts. Jewish identity is tied up with some of the most difficult and contentious issues of today. The purpose in this book is to open many of these issues up for discussion. Since Israel defines itself openly as the ‘Jewish State’, we should ask what the notions of ’Judaism’, ‘Jewishness’, ‘Jewish culture’ and ‘Jewish ideology’ stand for.
Wandering-Who-Jewish-Identity-Politics-ebook

a reply to: windword

Thank you.

In a historical context, he could say things like "woe" without explaining what is meant. Let their own imaginations torment them, if they had any conscience that is.

I sort of doubt that Jesus himself would have spoiled the impact by going into details himself. Seriously would have detracted from the punch line.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Thank you.

I find this very wise since this is a perfect example of loving the potential of a soul to do good but sometimes hating the corruption humanity have created.

So you see a dichotomy of soul/physical ? Does the soul then represent inclination to goodness and the physical a badness/crippledness/restraint ?

Believers usually call this passage Cost of Discipleship, that one should realize and weigh the cost before committing.

I like your signature!

Sort of reminds me of the time I waded through Augustine's two volume work on Trinity. If such a huge book is required to explain it, then maybe there's something a bit other than self evident being discussed.

a reply to: pthena

A great teacher? Historians can't even establish that he even existed.

There are some wonderful stories and morality lessons, but these are likely to be collected folk wisdom.

The Bible had many, many authors.

Jesus, as far as anyone can deduce, didn't write anything down; at best, we have a bunch of stuff attributed to him, but nothing actually written by him.

And, like I say, that's if he even existed.

a reply to: CJCrawley

Thank you.

I tend to agree with you 100%.

The way I think of it: the person (fictional or real), because of reputation, becomes the spokesperson for passing on wise sayings. Kind of how Coyote is teacher of wisdom/good advice in some cultures.

That would explain the existence of much non-canonical writings with him as spokesperson/protagonist. Each writing is from a different spiritual/theological point of view, some quite contradictory, yet he's the teacher.

a reply to: pthena

The Physical Resurrection is crucial.

Thankfully more than 500 saw him alive after the Resurrection.

We can have confidence in the historical record on that score.