The Narrow Gate and the Road Few Find

a reply to: Wombocracy

But what a hot topic! It seems to be a nerve to Christians.

Yes, that it is. I'm still reading through to catch up. Thanks for starting the thread, I noticed that the Peter thread was getting side tracked to the path topic.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Wombocracy

But what a hot topic! It seems to be a nerve to Christians.

Yes, that it is. I'm still reading through to catch up. Thanks for starting the thread, I noticed that the Peter thread was getting side tracked to the path topic.

That's all very astute observation, I mean that.

I needed it too. So thanks for the refreshing perspective. Honestly (I tend to get sarcastic so I just want you to know I am not being right now).

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Wombocracy

I guess my question for you, Wombocracy, is do you love Jesus with all of your heart and entrust your entire life to him? Or do you believe that just being a good person is the path? Would you say that you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?

This type of question is problematic in that what I say about Jesus should be enough to reveal how I feel about Jesus and to me sounds like a complete stall tactic designed to get me answering questions that have no real need to be asked in the first place.

What I do and believe isn't the issue.

What Jesus says is. If you listen to Jesus and do what he taught you don't have anything to worry about.

But very few people actually do.

And it is as he said it would be.

originally posted by: Wombocracy

Salvation is not an issue.

Not once does Jesus say "salvation."

The Kingdom of God is what he teaches.

Condemnation being the alternative but the Kingdom is from doing (works) exactly what Jesus said.

Worrying about salvation is not part of the plan.

Yes, Jesus mentions salvation in the very last sentence of a previous verse I posted...

John 10:7-9

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

originally posted by: Wombocracy

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Wombocracy

I guess my question for you, Wombocracy, is do you love Jesus with all of your heart and entrust your entire life to him? Or do you believe that just being a good person is the path? Would you say that you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?

This type of question is problematic in that what I say about Jesus should be enough to reveal how I feel about Jesus and to me sounds like a complete stall tactic designed to get me answering questions that have no real need to be asked in the first place.

What I do and believe isn't the issue.

What Jesus says is. If you listen to Jesus and do what he taught you don't have anything to worry about.

But very few people actually do.

And it is as he said it would be.

Here is what Jesus said was the first and greatest commandment...

Matthew 22:36-38

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

a reply to: Deetermined


That is a parable. He is using saved sheep as a metaphor for his followers but not focusing his ministry on salvation or a need to be saved.

His focus is on spreading good and the Kingdom of God. His followers relate to the saved sheep because they know about the Kingdom of God.

If you know about the Kingdom, you don't need salvation.

originally posted by: Deetermined

originally posted by: Wombocracy

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Wombocracy

I guess my question for you, Wombocracy, is do you love Jesus with all of your heart and entrust your entire life to him? Or do you believe that just being a good person is the path? Would you say that you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?

This type of question is problematic in that what I say about Jesus should be enough to reveal how I feel about Jesus and to me sounds like a complete stall tactic designed to get me answering questions that have no real need to be asked in the first place.

What I do and believe isn't the issue.

What Jesus says is. If you listen to Jesus and do what he taught you don't have anything to worry about.

But very few people actually do.

And it is as he said it would be.

Here is what Jesus said was the first and greatest commandment...

Matthew 22:36-38

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

I know all of this and don't disagree with it. It is a component of what I am saying.

All of Jesus teachings are the narrow path.

a reply to: Deetermined

Yes, Jesus mentions salvation in the very last sentence of a previous verse I posted...

John 10:7-9

This raises a point, which people have evaded. It's called "proof texting", which leads to any number of conflicting notions.
The Jesus character in the narrative uses words like "gate", "path" etc. And people run some where else, into other narratives and discourses to discover what those terms mean.

Tongue in cheek I say, "stay on the narrow path" means "keep to the narrative".

15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.

21Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

If we assume that these sayings from the Jesus character were actually part of the same discourse, it would also follow that the rest of the discourse is where the meaning of "gate" and "path" are explained.

There are some derogatory sounding terms here, "false prophet" "wolf in sheeps clothing" "corrupt tree" "evil fruit", how are these nasty things explained?

"didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'

When the Jesus character, at the Last Supper story, informed his disciples that one of them would betray him, their response was "Is it me". That seems a wise response. What we see in Christendom is people pointing and saying "that's the guy, over there, he's the false prophet, the wolf, the corrupt tree. That guy over there!"

Perhaps the response "Is it me?" is to be preferred over, "It's that guy".

a reply to: pthena

Yet, for some reason, everyone wants to overlook the first and greatest commandment given by Jesus.

While good works might build someone treasures/rewards in heaven, they won't get you into heaven. Only by fulfilling the first and greatest commandment does it start to become possible. This is why Jesus said what he did. The rest falls into place after the first commandment has been filled.

I think I've answered my own previous question on how much faith does it take?

a reply to: Deetermined

That is exactly what the narrow path is.

It begins and ends with love for God.

That is the Kingdom of God also, realizing this.

It is within and without, above and below (on earth as it is in Heaven).

a reply to: Deetermined

But along that path is faith and good deeds, Wisdom and putting the Wisdom of the spoken teachings of Christ in action.

Studiously.

a reply to: Wombocracy

Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of faith?

a reply to: Deetermined

Faith is:

1. Believing with no regard for absence of proof (or proof of untruths)

2. A word to describe the totality of what someone believes spiritually .

3. Knowing without a reason. An intuitive belief that speaks directly to your spirit.

a reply to: Wombocracy

What I meant was, what is your definition of faith as it relates to Jesus?

It is said that fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom. Yet this is a poor way of expressing what was expressed in the Hebrew tongue.

Reverence for God is the beginning of Wisdom.

Not fear. Why fear Love and Mercy?

Fear is a negative emotion and an bestial quality. It's proper place is in times of danger not while paying homage to God .

Corny though it is, fear is all there is to fear.

God only wants to help. We could have been placed in any reality the Infinite Mind can conceive of. This one is not so bad.

a reply to: Deetermined

I think the definition you seek is something Ineffable.

I am truly pleased with how this thread has gone. Though some negativity occurred of which I share the blame it has taken a positive turn, even if less active now that the hostility has died down.

Hopefully further discussion occurs and remains positive in attitude.

a reply to: Wombocracy

do you know the difference between "by faith" and "through faith"?

You can learn it from the context in the AV Bible. If you will only read it.

a reply to: Deetermined

Yet, for some reason, everyone wants to overlook the first and greatest commandment given by Jesus.

Yes. I am one of those people. It is given in the stories that the question was, "What is the greatest commandment in The Law" That's in the Law, not a command by his own authority.

John 13:33Little children, I will be with you a little while longer. You will seek me, and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you can't come,' so now I tell you. 34A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just like I have loved you; that you also love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

This would be an example of the Jesus character giving a command upon his own authority, not one borrowed from Moses character in the Deuteronomy story.

I think I've answered my own previous question on how much faith does it take?

Maybe. If you believe that the Jesus character is greater than the Moses character, you might conclude also that the command from Jesus has priority over the command of Moses.

Then love of those you can see and know to exist replaces faith in that which you have never seen.

But notice what a great amount of other scriptures fade away in the process.

You asked your original question to (NuT). I will now look for a response from him.

Warning: I don't know the difference between saved or not saved, so I can't answer how much faith it takes to be saved.