Dianne Feinstein says Americans must prove their innocence if they’re on a watch list

a reply to: Azureblue

It might be part of why they have a less than 20% approval rating ... because they've been doing this for a while now. The media says it's because they don't get things done, but if this is the kind of thing they "get done," I don't think many want that either.

hey heres an idea. Let's force a law saying that unless a congress critter has actual first hand knowledge on a subject that is documented, then they are not allowed to vote or debate an issue, or put forth a bill related to an issue they have no knowledge of. That would end a lot of the stupid crap these morons do up there.

some examples, oh your degree is in underwater basket weaving and you didnt even take econ 101, well then most likley you have no knowledge how the economy works, so you can not vote, debate or bring forth legislation.

You have never even fired a gun...like Feinstein, well your opinion is not valid, shut up and wait till the bill on broom sticks comes up.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: eNumbra
Why are so many people acting like innocent until proven guilty and due process are just now being killed?

That happened with the creation of those lists.

You guys are terrible conspiracy nuts.

Exactly. Some of the people who are complaining about this are the very same people who want to put all Muslims on these same types of lists. They have no problem declaring people like me "guilty until proven innocent". But they're only complaining now because it can possibly affect themselves.

My thoughts exactly.

It's funny how people are considering this to be a "left," thing - yet when the "right," does it (Donald is for no-fly no-gun), there's hardly a peep of opposition and it is heavily defended.

Yep. There's even a thread here from just a few days ago called "Donald Trump says US should consider profiling Muslims" (here) where some of them are saying the exact opposite stuff.

I've said it several times now: they want a 2 tiered society where govt stays out of their lives but stays in everybody else's lives. That explains their constant calls for "small government" on the issues that they care about while they also push for new profiling laws, new bathroom laws, restrictions on women's reproductive rights, etc.

It's literally straight out of 1984 and completely embodies doublespeak/doublethink.

"Small government," whilst wanting to implement a more advanced nation under surveillance of the federal government.

"Small government," yet want legislation for bathroom use.

"Small government," yet want to retain the war on drugs and militarize police departments/units.

"Small government," but want to bomb a fictional city from Aladdin.

"Small government," but want the government to enact and implement some sort of "watch list," (as if these didn't exist already) to "keep an eye on things until they understand what's going on."

"Small government," yet want the government to force a sovereign nation to build a wall (and they don't want to pay for it).

Not all Conservatives/Republicans follow this but GOP candidates DO - and it is the same authoritarianism on the right as it is the left.

Just a little side note - after ten+ years of a Post-9/11 America with all sorts of fun and inventive legislation (Patriot Act, mass surveillance, NDAA, etc etc) has the "threat," of terrorism seemed to be stifled in any way?

No? No.

So what kind of idiot would imagine implementing even MORE draconian legislation (that is detrimental to Americans) when it hasn't done a DAMN thing?

Because Americans love their "small government."

So...Jane average makes a joke on Facebook and some liberal takes offence and puts them on the no-fly list. What are the actual hoops this person has to endure to get taken off the list. I'm just guessing here:

1. Find, get and complete the correct paperwork. Probably 500 or so pages.
2. Pay a fee to submit said forms. I'm guessing $500 or so not counting the notary.
3. Hire a lawyer. Most likely a $2500 retainer to begin.
4. Wait...
5. Wait some more...
6. Respond to a list of questions providing physical, written or document proof on each item.
7. Appear in court...likely out of state. Travel is quite expensive and they handle your junk.
8. Bring your lawyer...$20000.
9. Hope you win...fat chance.
10. Go home...be in the same spot you were $23000 ago, still on the no-fly list and (if they got their way) unable to own a gun.

The funniest part? This could easily be a 70 year old white woman in a wheelchair.

Thank GOD the left are there to assure we are protected from this horrible potential terrorist. I understand that if she hits you with that cane it can hurt like hell.

a reply to: RomeByFire

Exactly. I've learned to ignore the words and pay attention to the actions. If you've ever seen the movie "Mars Attacks!", it reminds me of that.

a reply to: SM2

The big problem with this is that most of them have degrees in law, and since they are passing laws, they can all claim some kind of experience with that even if they know nothing at all about the things those laws are designed to regulate or check.

originally posted by: Phage
Feinstein is a duck in a barrel.

sounds like the gales of logic have torn your sails asunder...by the way, have you every seen a duck in a barrel...I haven't

a reply to: xuenchen

She is almost as bad as Hillary. The founding fathers would have strung them up.

My question is:

How do you even know you're on the list? I highly doubt they send out form letters. "Greetings...You are receiving this letter to inform you you've been added to the alphabet agency watch list."

I filed complaints with the FBI against my employer 5 years ago. I went to their local headquarters to see if they had even received my complaint. And the guy behind the bulletproof glass handed me a post-it with the 1-800 number to make an open records request. And that was just me checking to see if they'd received an e-mail from me regarding unlawful activity.

So, they put you on a watch list without telling you. You can't even find out if you're on the list unless you file an open records request. (anything you get from said request, you'll probably be charged money for) The reasons you're on the list are probably redacted for security reasons. But it's up to you to prove your innocence. Yay bureaucracy!

I don't agree with Feinstein, there should be due process to get on the watch lists, especially if they are going to be used to take away rights. Right now they are being used to take away the right to travel (something conservatives pushed for). Also, you should be innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until you are proven innocent.

I like the watch lists, but they should definitely fix the due process part, especially if they are going to be using the watch lists as the basis for other programs. They are not error-free, either - a lot of people have gotten on them accidentally.

a reply to: xuenchen

Google says no.

Gov't money would have to be allotted to this program to make it smoother, quicker.

You Mean Smoother and Quicker.

Like OBAMACARE ?

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
My question is:

How do you even know you're on the list? I highly doubt they send out form letters. "Greetings...You are receiving this letter to inform you you've been added to the alphabet agency watch list."

I filed complaints with the FBI against my employer 5 years ago. I went to their local headquarters to see if they had even received my complaint. And the guy behind the bulletproof glass handed me a post-it with the 1-800 number to make an open records request. And that was just me checking to see if they'd received an e-mail from me regarding unlawful activity.

So, they put you on a watch list without telling you. You can't even find out if you're on the list unless you file an open records request. (anything you get from said request, you'll probably be charged money for) The reasons you're on the list are probably redacted for security reasons. But it's up to you to prove your innocence. Yay bureaucracy!

No joke, I had a D&D D20 supplement book that had an actual trap called "maze of bureaucracy" in it. It was basically a bunch of tables for you to more or less create a random problem for the party and them roll up endless titles, forms, fees and steps with various officials they had to clear before they could absolve themselves of said problem.

That is basically what getting off any watch list will be - a "maze of bureaucracy."

a reply to: ketsuko

Put the terrorists on Double Secret Probation....that'll show em.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: watchitburn

What's wrong with people today? Its "brightest spoon in the drawer"; its "sharpest knife in the drawer"; "brightest bulb in the box"; "brightest tool in the shed", (not spoon).

Dyslexic Wednesday?

Sharpest tool in the shed...

How exactly can a person prove they are innocent of a belief based upon facts? If I spoke with people in a bad part of the world and someone coupled that with my total dislike of our government...how can I prove that wrong? Maybe I was talking to someone in Pakistan about something innocent. How do I prove that?

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

I have a writing partner in Norway. And one time he sent me a post-apocalyptic story idea....with EVERY friggin catch word you could imagine regarding 'terrorist' 'rebels' 'blowing stuff up' 'overthrowing the government'....Argh!!!

So, international correspondence + red flag catch words + my email being associated with THIS site = I'm probably on some watch list somewhere. But I'd never hurt anyone, I'm deeply patriotic and would never associate with terrorist groups or participate in terrorist activities. "Ah, but that's just what you'd say if you WERE a terrorist."

Before jumping through the hoops of trying to prove your innocence, my main concern would be how the hell do you even know if you're on a list or find out the reasons why so you can try to dispute them????