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Tomorrow: In/Out and The Reason It's Not As Simple As It Ought To Be
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Hello again everyone!
Had an unexpectedly busy day so far, otherwise I would have done a better job of keeping up with this thread.
Kali74, I agree with your economic assessment in so far as that is what the information we have been given is currently suggesting.
However, there is rather more to this EU stuff than simple economics. You also have to consider that our presence in the EU on a continued basis would represent tacit approval of any effort to create a European military, controlled without reference to or allegiance to this nation, by persons not sworn to serve our nation, but Europe as a whole. There have been some fantastic points made about just how helpful our neighbours have been to us in recent decades, in military terms, with regard to Gibraltar, the Falklands, and so on. The evidence seems pretty good that a Europe with its own army, would not use that army for our benefit as Britons, but would rather seek to enforce situations we find absolutely disagreeable.
That is without even getting into TTIP. I think it is pretty clear that no matter which way we jump, we are damned. I think the choice boils down to how we want to be damned, and under whose authority.
You also have to remember, that our membership of the EU, courtesy of Heath and friends back in the day, was actually organised on a totally illegal basis. We only got to choose whether to come out, we never had a say worth a damn about whether or not we went in. More to the point, the people have been kept in the dark about the nature and intention behind the very creation of the EU, which has, since it first was birthed a a concept, intended to unify the military might of the European nations, as well as every other aspect of civic existence, to the point where one nation could not be properly distinguished from another, to the point where national identity and allegiance to a flag or state individually, became a notion bordering on anacrhonistic.
On the face of it, assuming the best intentions of everyone involved, that does not sound like something I would be against. However, one would have to be a clot of the highest possible order, to believe that anyone in the EU infrastructure has the best of intentions, especially when you consider the appalling treatment Greece has suffered from Merkel, backed up by her cronies in Brussels. Relying on good intentions is somewhat like relying on the sun coming out tomorrow, when you are in the midst of British summertime (which is like spring for everyone else, that is rainy, sunny, rainy, rainy again, sunny and then rainy again, in the space of a few days, or even a few hours. Essentially, damp).
So we cannot trust the people who want us in, because they want us to be accomplices to one of the longest running treasons there has ever been (which is what Heath committed when he put us into this silly thing in the first place).
But we cannot trust the motivations of the most vocal advocates for leaving the EU either, because these people have amongst their most ardent grass roots activists, morons like Tommy Mair (Jo Cox's murderer, and lifetime member of the fascist bastard club of Great Britain), and the contemptible swine, Mr Peacock, who tweeted in response to a donation page set up for the Cox family "I just donated the steam off my piss!".
To cut a long story short, there are bastards everywhere, none of whom are to be trusted!
Now, I know that no matter what happens next, things are going to be harder from here on, possibly devastating either way. I am of the opinion that the only choice we really have, is whether to suffer as one nation under its own recognisance and pay for it every single day, in the harshest economic climate we have faced since the end of the Second World War, or whether to stay in, and be marginalised, robbed, and taken the piss out of for the rest of our days, and not only that, but to doom our children and our children's children to that fate as well.
Had an unexpectedly busy day so far, otherwise I would have done a better job of keeping up with this thread.
Kali74, I agree with your economic assessment in so far as that is what the information we have been given is currently suggesting.
However, there is rather more to this EU stuff than simple economics. You also have to consider that our presence in the EU on a continued basis would represent tacit approval of any effort to create a European military, controlled without reference to or allegiance to this nation, by persons not sworn to serve our nation, but Europe as a whole. There have been some fantastic points made about just how helpful our neighbours have been to us in recent decades, in military terms, with regard to Gibraltar, the Falklands, and so on. The evidence seems pretty good that a Europe with its own army, would not use that army for our benefit as Britons, but would rather seek to enforce situations we find absolutely disagreeable.
That is without even getting into TTIP. I think it is pretty clear that no matter which way we jump, we are damned. I think the choice boils down to how we want to be damned, and under whose authority.
You also have to remember, that our membership of the EU, courtesy of Heath and friends back in the day, was actually organised on a totally illegal basis. We only got to choose whether to come out, we never had a say worth a damn about whether or not we went in. More to the point, the people have been kept in the dark about the nature and intention behind the very creation of the EU, which has, since it first was birthed a a concept, intended to unify the military might of the European nations, as well as every other aspect of civic existence, to the point where one nation could not be properly distinguished from another, to the point where national identity and allegiance to a flag or state individually, became a notion bordering on anacrhonistic.
On the face of it, assuming the best intentions of everyone involved, that does not sound like something I would be against. However, one would have to be a clot of the highest possible order, to believe that anyone in the EU infrastructure has the best of intentions, especially when you consider the appalling treatment Greece has suffered from Merkel, backed up by her cronies in Brussels. Relying on good intentions is somewhat like relying on the sun coming out tomorrow, when you are in the midst of British summertime (which is like spring for everyone else, that is rainy, sunny, rainy, rainy again, sunny and then rainy again, in the space of a few days, or even a few hours. Essentially, damp).
So we cannot trust the people who want us in, because they want us to be accomplices to one of the longest running treasons there has ever been (which is what Heath committed when he put us into this silly thing in the first place).
But we cannot trust the motivations of the most vocal advocates for leaving the EU either, because these people have amongst their most ardent grass roots activists, morons like Tommy Mair (Jo Cox's murderer, and lifetime member of the fascist bastard club of Great Britain), and the contemptible swine, Mr Peacock, who tweeted in response to a donation page set up for the Cox family "I just donated the steam off my piss!".
To cut a long story short, there are bastards everywhere, none of whom are to be trusted!
Now, I know that no matter what happens next, things are going to be harder from here on, possibly devastating either way. I am of the opinion that the only choice we really have, is whether to suffer as one nation under its own recognisance and pay for it every single day, in the harshest economic climate we have faced since the end of the Second World War, or whether to stay in, and be marginalised, robbed, and taken the piss out of for the rest of our days, and not only that, but to doom our children and our children's children to that fate as well.
edit on 22-6-2016 by TrueBrit because: Grammatical error removed
originally posted by: TrueBrit
I am of the opinion that the only choice we really have, is whether to suffer as one nation under its own recognisance and pay for it every single day, in the harshest economic climate we have faced since the end of the Second World War, or whether to stay in, and be marginalised, robbed, and taken the piss out of for the rest of our days, and not only that, but to doom our children and our children's children to that fate as well.
I absolutely agree, and it is why I am voting leave.
I believe in my country folk, I believe in Britain, and if I'm going to be #ed over a barrel then I wish it to be people in power who have absolute sovereignty over the country, from Britain, in Britain.
If it all goes tits up after a leave vote then so be it. I expect many challenges, known/unknown as they are, but you know what, I'd rather face challenges collectively with my own brave people against the bastards of the world from other countries.
If our elected representatives are bastards after a leave vote, we get the next general election to kick them out. If they are all bastards then we've got protest, civil disobedience and rioting at Westminster, as a people, against the people who are screwing us over. Try doing that as a minority member state of the EU when the political union increases...and it will because that is the intention.
I believe we, as a people, will feel more confident and empowered if we vote leave and face the world as a strong independent nation again. Anyone who says there will be no challenges either way it goes will be lying, but so too would anyone who says that the UK cannot survive and eventually thrive.
edit on 22.6.2016 by grainofsand because: Typo
a reply to: TrueBrit
I know I will be voting to stay in, at least to the extent we already are. I know the the difference the EU has made to standards in just about every way. We are a more disciplined, a more work ethical and conscientious peoples over the last 34 years. Our expectations for work and a proper living wage, are way, way higher than before our partial entry into the EU. Notwithstanding that, some fully integrated countries are actually better off in cases like the sharing of the costs of infrastructure, Eire has a plethora of new motorways, road building like never seen before, while the UK has a crumbly mumbly system and is far behind. I know as a civil servant, my pay went from existence money pre EU, to something worth working for after the UK joining the EU as new standards for work and pay gradually become set.
Leaving the EU, IMHO, is for a bunch of nut cases who think they will go it alone, and will be free to dictate terms to everyone else, that's the old jingoism for you...and if the decision is to leave, the nutters are in for a Huuuuggge shock. It won't be a shock for me, as I will make plans for a hasty exit.....to an EU country.
I know I will be voting to stay in, at least to the extent we already are. I know the the difference the EU has made to standards in just about every way. We are a more disciplined, a more work ethical and conscientious peoples over the last 34 years. Our expectations for work and a proper living wage, are way, way higher than before our partial entry into the EU. Notwithstanding that, some fully integrated countries are actually better off in cases like the sharing of the costs of infrastructure, Eire has a plethora of new motorways, road building like never seen before, while the UK has a crumbly mumbly system and is far behind. I know as a civil servant, my pay went from existence money pre EU, to something worth working for after the UK joining the EU as new standards for work and pay gradually become set.
Leaving the EU, IMHO, is for a bunch of nut cases who think they will go it alone, and will be free to dictate terms to everyone else, that's the old jingoism for you...and if the decision is to leave, the nutters are in for a Huuuuggge shock. It won't be a shock for me, as I will make plans for a hasty exit.....to an EU country.
I was interested in your seemingly reasoned opinion up until this...
And this...
How do you know this exactly?
originally posted by: smurfy
Leaving the EU, IMHO, is for a bunch of nut cases who think they will go it alone, and will be free to dictate terms to everyone else, that's the old jingoism for you
And this...
...and if the decision is to leave, the nutters are in for a Huuuuggge shock.
How do you know this exactly?
a reply to: grainofsand
That is, largely speaking, the same conclusion to which I have come on the matter.
Take a step back, take initiative, make a change.
That is, largely speaking, the same conclusion to which I have come on the matter.
Take a step back, take initiative, make a change.
a reply to: TrueBrit
Just expanding on my prior thought George Soros has got himself personally involved in this I know he has outsorce vote counting companies such as Smartmatic in the USA and Scytl in Spain,I hope cookie monster isnt in charge of the cookie jar.
Just expanding on my prior thought George Soros has got himself personally involved in this I know he has outsorce vote counting companies such as Smartmatic in the USA and Scytl in Spain,I hope cookie monster isnt in charge of the cookie jar.
Most younger people will vote "in" just because it sounds more inclusive and no other reason like texting to your friends "I'm in" when talking about
going to a gig yes that is how fickle and low IQ-ed young people can be.
a reply to: zinc12
It may have been your experience that the young are weak, mindless, thoughtless, and of low intelligence, but I do not believe that your experience has been representative of the entire youth.
The student protests of not that long ago in London, during which young people were beaten, charged on horseback, had a tactic call kettling used on them, which hemmed them in and stopped them from leaving, the fact that they were prepared to suffer all of that for what they believed in, proves that the younger members of society are capable of realising when they are being shafted, that they will mobilise to voice their fury at it, and will act to prevent it if they can.
The sort of thing which most dissuades the young from acting, is that those who are no longer a part of that demography mistrust their motivations, doubt their intellect, and rather than accepting their kinship and loyalty to a cause, often demand that the grown ups be left to deal with things, since the young cannot be trusted not to make a mess of things.
It may be true that the younger a person is, the more vigour they have, the more likely that vigour will be expressed to the detriment of orderly conduct. It may even be true that more things get broken when young people are around. But we were all young once, and our elders said the exact same things of our generation, as some say of the young of today, and as the young of today will one day say of the young of tomorrow.
No matter how easy it is to repeat, nonsense will always be nonsense though, and for that reason it is vital now, and will only become more so as time wears on, that we listen to reasonable voices, no matter what age group they come from. I never lost the idealism of my youth. I still believe in freedom, I still believe in love between all human beings on the earth, and no matter what ills befall our nation or our planet, I will still believe that these things will remain the cure, or the basis for it.
You see age means nothing. It is nothing more than a count of the number of times your body has been around the sun. I know some older people who were high flying executives in their younger days, who have not LIVED a day in their lives, merely gone through the motions, sucked up money power, gained material things, and yet have never lived in the moment even half as much as I have. I have met kids who live on council estates who have lived twice as hard, and twice as much life as me.
This is our nation. All citizens of these isles, young, old, rich, poor, black, white, religious, atheist, agnostic, lefty and righty, and all the pieces which lay between each of these. We should all, MUST all have our say, either way, for better or worse.
It may have been your experience that the young are weak, mindless, thoughtless, and of low intelligence, but I do not believe that your experience has been representative of the entire youth.
The student protests of not that long ago in London, during which young people were beaten, charged on horseback, had a tactic call kettling used on them, which hemmed them in and stopped them from leaving, the fact that they were prepared to suffer all of that for what they believed in, proves that the younger members of society are capable of realising when they are being shafted, that they will mobilise to voice their fury at it, and will act to prevent it if they can.
The sort of thing which most dissuades the young from acting, is that those who are no longer a part of that demography mistrust their motivations, doubt their intellect, and rather than accepting their kinship and loyalty to a cause, often demand that the grown ups be left to deal with things, since the young cannot be trusted not to make a mess of things.
It may be true that the younger a person is, the more vigour they have, the more likely that vigour will be expressed to the detriment of orderly conduct. It may even be true that more things get broken when young people are around. But we were all young once, and our elders said the exact same things of our generation, as some say of the young of today, and as the young of today will one day say of the young of tomorrow.
No matter how easy it is to repeat, nonsense will always be nonsense though, and for that reason it is vital now, and will only become more so as time wears on, that we listen to reasonable voices, no matter what age group they come from. I never lost the idealism of my youth. I still believe in freedom, I still believe in love between all human beings on the earth, and no matter what ills befall our nation or our planet, I will still believe that these things will remain the cure, or the basis for it.
You see age means nothing. It is nothing more than a count of the number of times your body has been around the sun. I know some older people who were high flying executives in their younger days, who have not LIVED a day in their lives, merely gone through the motions, sucked up money power, gained material things, and yet have never lived in the moment even half as much as I have. I have met kids who live on council estates who have lived twice as hard, and twice as much life as me.
This is our nation. All citizens of these isles, young, old, rich, poor, black, white, religious, atheist, agnostic, lefty and righty, and all the pieces which lay between each of these. We should all, MUST all have our say, either way, for better or worse.
a reply to: TrueBrit
The politicians know the majority of young people are fickle that's why they launched the "talk to Gran" campaign. The physiological message being its cool and young to vote in and old and misguided to vote out...and you want to be cool don't you lol
btw I personally think we are in for rough times whatever way it goes only difference being if we leave the troubles will be short term and if we stay look forward to long term trouble.
The politicians know the majority of young people are fickle that's why they launched the "talk to Gran" campaign. The physiological message being its cool and young to vote in and old and misguided to vote out...and you want to be cool don't you lol
btw I personally think we are in for rough times whatever way it goes only difference being if we leave the troubles will be short term and if we stay look forward to long term trouble.
edit on 22-6-2016 by zinc12 because: (no reason given)
70 PER CENT LEAVE TO 30 PER CENT STAY IN A DAILY TELEGRAPH ONLINE POLL OF 692,000 PLUS...so if they tell you you voted stay you've been diddled
originally posted by: khnum
70 PER CENT LEAVE TO 30 PER CENT STAY IN A DAILY TELEGRAPH ONLINE POLL OF 692,000 PLUS...so if they tell you you voted stay you've been diddled
And yet on TV a short while ago they mentioned 58% to stay. Well this time tomorrow there will be a lot of people with low morals counting votes I guess.
originally posted by: zinc12
Most younger people will vote "in" just because it sounds more inclusive and no other reason like texting to your friends "I'm in" when talking about going to a gig yes that is how fickle and low IQ-ed young people can be.
Sounds about right.
a reply to: TrueBrit
It may have been your experience that the young are weak, mindless, thoughtless, and of low intelligence, but I do not believe that your experience has been representative of the entire youth.
Really? Based on what?
Dumbed-down education is alive and well and there is no better example than here in globalised Britain.
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