Tomorrow: In/Out and The Reason It's Not As Simple As It Ought To Be

Tomorrow our nation faces a decision which not only could, but will have consequences for everyone living and working within the nation. It will be a choice as to whether or not Britain leaves the EU, or continues on with things being what they are.

The campaigns being run by both parties have been largely negative, fear based, and utterly unhelpful chunks of propaganda. There has been very little reason or logic applied to the situation by either camp, a bunch of dogma and waffle, but little of any substance.

There are those who throw their weight behind numbers, like the £350 million pounds the leave campaign says we send to Brussels yearly, which in actual fact is closer to £190 million, which is roughly the cost of common market access anyway, and therefore is a price we would pay to trade there whether in, or out of the EU. There is the border issue, immigration to consider. Except that without cheap labour, all the businesses relying on that cheap labour would jack their prices up to cover their costs (read: ensure that their profit margins remain unimaginably vast, and keeping executive pay at a high level, which is not a good reason to do anything, leave alone stuff a nations taxpayers twice). Either that, or fold, largely on an ideological basis, rather than on the basis of no longer being able to afford to do any business.

And what of our laws? What of our sovereignty as a nation, the primacy of our legal system over all others applied to this nation and the goings on within it? Yes, of course we should be able to deport terrorists and hate preachers, and cannot, but I ask you, would leaving the EU make our nations involvement with human rights campaigns and law any less binding and meaningful?

And what about cost of living? You see, as far as I am concerned, I no longer care about the ideal behind this referendum. All I care about is, will I be able to afford to eat? If not, why not? Will I be able to afford the rent? Will I be able to afford the taxes, the rates, the power and water bills, to run a vehicle, to purchase insurance?

And what of the protections that the EU gives working people, that we would not otherwise have? Those working time directives and what have you? Would coming out mean working people only have the same protections they did before the EU was joined? These questions and more should have been answered by the talking heads, and they haven't been. Firm decisions should have been come to already on these matters, and they haven't. In or out, we are screwed. We cannot help but watch the wrong hand, so I ask you, given that both sides are lying through their teeth every time they open their mouths, does it even matter any more, whose lies we buy, or at what price?

We cannot trust either side, we cannot trust anyone's figures, assumptions, or prejudices to see us to a correct answer. I personally have a feeling that we are as damned one way as the other.

Which ever way you vote tomorrow, my fellow Britons, do not do it because you think you know the truth. No one does. All we have to rely on here is gut feeling, because everything else has been lying to us since this whole mess began.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Good morning matey!

It's doing it again.😃

Mods and other observers, worry not! For soon shall your weary eyes glide soothingly across crystalline script! Forsooth! The TrueBrit doth have his problems with posting stuff and shall be presently available!

a reply to: Ericthedoubter
It's a symptom of impatience, isn't it? In such a hurry to get the thread out that he keeps pressing Enter before he's got away from the title field.

a reply to: TrueBrit

How have you been truebrit?

missed seeing you around.

Hope your computer/ATS connection is all working.

I want to read this thread whatever it is.

(ponders to himself whether truebrit is hacked or knackered...)

a reply to: TrueBrit

we are screwed. We cannot help but watch the wrong hand, so I ask you, given that both sides are lying through their teeth every time they open their mouths, does it even matter any more, whose lies we buy, or at what price?

We cannot trust either side, we cannot trust anyone's figures, assumptions, or prejudices to see us to a correct answer. I personally have a feeling that we are as damned one way as the other.

Which ever way you vote tomorrow, my fellow Britons, do not do it because you think you know the truth. No one does. All we have to rely on here is gut feeling, because everything else has been lying to us since this whole mess began.

And that is the ultimate truth of it all.

In the UK BREXIT, the US election coming up or any illusion of choice put to us.

I wish you the best, enjoy the day, spend time with family, love each other.

ETA: After reading that I realize I sound like a flower child, but in the end that is all we have.

I am just so sick of all the BS fed to us in this world. NONE of it matters, its not like we have any control over anything other than ourselves.

originally posted by: stosh64


ETA: After reading that I realize I sound like a flower child, but in the end that is all we have.

You mean like the Pilbury doughboy? Or have i got the wrong of the stick?

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: stosh64


ETA: After reading that I realize I sound like a flower child, but in the end that is all we have.

You mean like the Pilbury doughboy? Or have i got the wrong of the stick?

Wow, ok.
Flower child.

Not Flour child.

I'm starting to think that we will be OUT of the EU, but for the wrong reasons...

ie. we will leave, then a planned crisis will emerge, that leaving the EU will be blamed for, so that everyone ends up feeling all warm and cosy about globalisation, because, you know, "look how bad leaving the EU worked out for Britain".

a reply to: TrueBrit

All any one can do is research for themselves as much as possible so they can make an informed decision (or as informed as possible, given the circumstances).

The problem we have over here is actually finding balanced sources. Our media, for example, routinely make up or distort decisions and policies from the EU..........and we end up buying into those lies hook, line and sinker.

On the other hand, the EU regularly disguises policies so they say one thing and end up actually doing something very different - leaving us somewhere between a rock and a hard place when it comes to trying to discover the truth.

Personally speaking, i am a "Remainer" and for the first time am actually starting to feel rather confident about the vote tomorrow. Who knows though, that may be very misplaced!

a reply to: TrueBrit

I bet it will be similar to the Scottish referendum honestly.

51-53% stay.

Who counts the votes?

a reply to: TrueBrit

The waste and inefficiency of the EU . the over regulation and inflexibility to individual member states needs and inability to act in the face of the growing migrant crisis are just a few of the reasons I'm voting to leave tomorrow.

Even Jean-Claude Juncker admitted recently the EU had got it wrong over the years and meddled where they should not have.

Too much interference in people's private lives is leading to growing scepticism of the EU from its citizens, the European Commission President has said. Jean-Claude Juncker conceded that the EU had passed laws which should have been left to national governments but warned that "people who want more national things at the expense of European principles" will find themselves defenceless.

Areas of meddling include decrees on cucumber curvature and the height of a hairdresser's heels, forcing Juncker to tell the 47-nation body which includes all 28 EU states: "We were wrong." The former Luxembourg prime minister also spoke of his vision for "a strong influential Europe" promoting European values around the world but admitted that the continent is losing economic clout and "facing very tough times.
www.ibtimes.co.uk...

You can add to that list the Tobacco Products Directive and its effect on none tobacco products associated with vaping , big business controls the EU and many of the laws / directives it enforces on sovereign nations , the citizens of the EU are little more than the bankrollers of the club with no real voice as to how it's run.

Vote Leave.

originally posted by: Dem0nc1eaner
I'm starting to think that we will be OUT of the EU, but for the wrong reasons...

ie. we will leave, then a planned crisis will emerge, that leaving the EU will be blamed for, so that everyone ends up feeling all warm and cosy about globalisation, because, you know, "look how bad leaving the EU worked out for Britain".

They cant go forward with the plan, now. You have ruint it for them calling it out and all

From the outside looking in, the choice seems pretty clear cut. Leave for the chance to determine your own destiny, or stay for the promise of economic benefit. Same choice the Scots had. They chose fiat currency over freedom.

But the choice is an illusion. There is no economic security in the EU, only the promise. And if the EU wants Britain back in the fold, they will exert whatever economic pressure necessary to make that happen.

No one escapes the boot of the Rothschild banking cartel. One way or the other, they will extract the wealth of every nation.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Everyone has their reasons for whatever choice they make.

For me it's not about immigration, free travel, trade or money. It's about not wanting a central invisible government ruling over us.

A group of men who weren't elected by the people and who's names and faces are completely unknown to most people. If the EU is allowed to continue those men will become infinitely powerful and removing them from power will be impossible.

The people in the UK can not march on Belgium if they needed to.

The EU government can be as draconian as they like in the future. What they give the people today can be taken away tomorrow. They need to sound appealing until everyone is under their rule.

And they want an EU army?!?!

I can only imagine because there will be some larger countries that will refuse to have a part in the EU.

Does anyone think this system has come about by pure chance? That these men have gotten into these positions of power by accident. Will they step down if we asked them to? No way!

With the advancements in technology it wont be long before mass surveillance is used against anyone who breaks any law and not just "terrorists". The EU government will become overbearing and there wont be a single thing anyone can do.

How is this what anybody wants? We can work together, trade, travel and communicate with everyone without the need for this central irremovable government.

Governments of countries will be nothing more than local councils with no real power. Voting out of the EU is the only way to take power and choice back. While our own politicians are equally as corrupt as the EU's they can be held accountable. The public can march on London, but not the EU.

Any rules the EU makes that benefit us can be made by our own governments. There is nothing the EU can do that we can not do ourselves.

I'm just trying to apply some foresight and look past the initial issues that seem to be worrying people. As most of those issues do not need the EU to be resolved.

The EU needs to collapse. I hope the UK starts the ball rolling.

Out sounds good
Less buruecratic red tape for businesses without all the eu redtape
The money saved from paying the eu can be used for better things in the uk rather than wasted by brussels .
Better immigration that would both attract educated immigrants would also open up slots in uni for uk citizens along with jobs for uk citizens .
Always thought the eu was dragging the uk down with its buruecracy and pc policies . Think an independent uk would be far better which probably terrifies brussels .

a reply to: TrueBrit

We send those Millions to them weekly, we send Billions to them yearly. As for employment protection we had that through having strong unions and ethical employers. No Zero hour contracts, or paying workers at a minimum wage., pre E.U.

The E.U have been holding back a tsunami of changes they want implemented, they know that if we knew what they have planned we would all vote OUT. And most people still don't know about TTIP, or it's very existance.

We have always had a reasonable flow of migrants European and non, but controlled so that the influx could be where it was needed and the necessary infastructure could be expanded where necessary.

And when the likes of Cameron bang on about security and being better together, l remember the lack of support we got when we needed it, during the Falklands the French sold the Argentinians the Exocet missiles that blew up our ships with support from Spain. Our support came from Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Ask people in Gibralter when they were bullied, and threatened by Spain last year, with no censure from the kind cuddly club we currently belong to.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I've always viewed the UK in a traditional sense.

You are a sovereign nation. Rule Britannia!

Not "just another state" in the United States of EU.

I wish you all the very best of luck tomorrow.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
In or out, we are screwed. .

And that's why I won't be voting tomorrow, I don't care if we stay or leave because like you say we're screwed either way and none of us know which choice will be felt harder because there's been absolutely nothing done to show us what the outcome will be for either choice.

When a vote is basically flipping a coin it's not worth a vote, got better things to waste my time on

From my understanding it will be worse economically to leave and Britain will still have to abide by EU standards in order to trade with the rest of Europe.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Whichever way we vote it will be used as the excuse for more austerity.
Those with vested interests will manage perfectly well after some initial bumps.

Ever get the feeling that our votes will be binned?