The Genesis Paradox

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: windword

My thoughts are that God put the choice to disobey Him in the garden on purpose. Because He knew man would eventually choose it. Because without the free will choice to choose Him, to love Him, then true love couldn't exist. Love cannot be ordered or programmed from another, in order for love to be genuine and pure it must be freely given. It must be a choice of the giver, if not a free will choice it's not love.

The above is the typical reason taught in Christianity for the two trees. But, my question is, WHY do this in the first place? It actually has the opposite affect on many people who go outside the "Christian box" and really think it through. I look around at this evil riddled world, the pain and suffering of human beings and animals, the unfairness of it all, and I think to myself, "WHAT kind of good, benevolent, creator would put us in this situation...all so it could be loved freely???
I mean, talk about ego.
To know all the horrific things that occur on this planet on a daily basis, the murders, rapes, diseases, natural disasters, animals that are treated cruelly...by humans. It's a predatory world. How many of those people/children/animals, begged for mercy in their hearts or some god to save them while they were being tortured and killed. WHY does god allow that? It's like he picks and chooses those who he'll spare and who he won't.
But, despite that, somehow there are people who actually try to be better. To be good. And still, they struggle with pain, heartache, loss, disease, and a myriad of other things. Even when trying to be good.
There is no rhyme or reason to it all.
Here's another thing....do you know ANYONE who is actually like Jesus? I don't. I mean, yea, there are some pretty decent folks out there, even a few Christians I know, but usually Christians can be the worst. They act like Paul, not Jesus, but there isn't really anyone who "does greater things than him", as he said we would do. I honestly think it's all BS.
I haven't given up on the thought that there is something out there good. I've encountered it.
The Bible has a mixture of truth and lies in it. That is what causes all the division amongst those who believe it's
"inerrant". I've also noticed an arrogance in fundamentalist believers. YHWH was arrogant and so was Paul. Those who believe them act the same.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: windword

Call it BS or not, It's irrelevant to me. The child doesn't need to comprehend the consequences of of a high velocity projectile entering flesh to obey the parent over them that lays down a rule not to touch it.

It's the fundamental basics of parenting, children don't have to understand the wisdom behind our commands before they obey.

Then that circumvents the whole "free will" argument. How can you say "obey or else", and still say that individual has free will? That's dumb.
The god of the bible says, "fear me and obey me, and I will love you and bless you". Oh, and you'll get to spend eternity with me in paradise. But, if you don't love me, I'm going to punish you for eternity in hell.
That's not "free will". That's extortion.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

What ego? Think about it simply, would you rather Mary a woman or a female mannequin? Why would it be better to marry a woman rather than a mannequin?

It's obvious, the woman would love you back of her free will. It's real. It's pointless to create man in your own image if you don't give that creation the ability to freely choose to love you. With that option, there will be some who will choose not to. But that doesn't mean the choice isn't there, because it is. God offers Hospital love freely to all, and to all He gave the choice to return it or reject it.

And yes, it's free will. You exhibit the reality of that every day, you demonstrated that when you replied to my post. Nobody forced you to, you chose yourself to do it. Life is billions and billions of free will decisions. All have consequences.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

What ego? Think about it simply, would you rather Mary a woman or a female mannequin? Why would it be better to marry a woman rather than a mannequin?

It's obvious, the woman would love you back of her free will. It's real. It's pointless to create man in your own image if you don't give that creation the ability to freely choose to love you. With that option, there will be some who will choose not to. But that doesn't mean the choice isn't there, because it is. God offers Hospital love freely to all, and to all He gave the choice to return it or reject it.

I'm sorry...but, that is a tired argument, and it's so typical. I've used it myself when defending the Bible for the 25 years I called myself a "Christian". Oh, and I was totally in love with god. I mean, all I wanted was to spend eternity with him. I did my best to tell others about his love....and judgment coming. Couldn't wait for Jesus to come back and wipe out all those bad people and set up his earthly kingdom. Yes, I LIVED for the end times to occur. I know the bible very well.....read it constantly.
Long story how I got to this point, but here's my take on that whole mannequin comment.....
I WOULD STILL BE MADLY IN LOVE WITH GOD, if I saw him actually GIVE A CRAP about this world!!! It's like he's AWOL.
Oh, but WE are still responsible to do good, feed the poor, not sin, help others, yada yada yada.....
While "god" sits on his butt and occasionally throws you a bone. We pray for him to help the relative with cancer. If they die, it's "god's will". If they get better, "we thank him".
I'm sick to death of this "god" getting a free pass on all the atrocities he allows on this planet, while getting thanked for the good.....while WE"RE going to judged for NOT doing what he doesn't do either!
Does anyone else the see the double standard in that???

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

I'm sick to death of this "god" getting a free pass on all the atrocities he allows on this planet, while getting thanked for the good.....while WE"RE going to judged for NOT doing what he doesn't do either!
Does anyone else the see the double standard in that???

Right on

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Huh? What kind of Christianity is that? Fire insurance and a get out of jail free card for the tribulation? I don't see anything like that in Acts, Jesus gave us his Spirit to stomp Hell and the works of the devil here and now, every day.

Did you ever receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit after your water baptism?

While "god" sits on his butt and occasionally throws you a bone. We pray for him to help the relative with cancer. If they die, it's "god's will". If they get better, "we thank him".
I'm sick to death of this "god" getting a free pass on all the atrocities he allows on this planet, while getting thanked for the good.....while WE"RE going to judged for NOT doing what he doesn't do either!

Whoever told you it was "God's will" for someone to die of cancer is a liar, the works of the devil are sickness and to steal, kill, and destroy. Or people have a confused idea about the soverignty of God. If He did His will every time He wouldn't need us to pray, Jesus wouldNT tell us to cast out demons or heal the sick.

Whoever told you it was God'a will that someone died of cancer is a liar. God doesn't will death from cancer and God doesn't give people cancer, God hates cancer.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Huh? What kind of Christianity is that? Fire insurance and a get out of jail free card for the tribulation? I don't see anything like that in Acts, Jesus gave us his Spirit to stomp Hell and the works of the devil here and now, every day.

Did you ever receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit after your water baptism?

While "god" sits on his butt and occasionally throws you a bone. We pray for him to help the relative with cancer. If they die, it's "god's will". If they get better, "we thank him".
I'm sick to death of this "god" getting a free pass on all the atrocities he allows on this planet, while getting thanked for the good.....while WE"RE going to judged for NOT doing what he doesn't do either!

Whoever told you it was "God's will" for someone to die of cancer is a liar, the works of the devil are sickness and to steal, kill, and destroy. Or people have a confused idea about the soverignty of God. If He did His will every time He wouldn't need us to pray, Jesus wouldNT tell us to cast out demons or heal the sick.

Whoever told you it was God'a will that someone died of cancer is a liar. God doesn't will death from cancer and God doesn't give people cancer, God hates cancer.

I wasn't talking about a "get out of jail free card". Those are the pre-trib rapture folks. I said I couldn't wait to be with God one day. I wanted this world to be recreated, as it says in scripture. I wanted Jesus to come back. I wanted the evil to be taken care of.
As for God hating cancer....he sure allows millions of people to die from it. He allows millions of people to suffer from all KINDS of things. He allows us to kill and eat animals, which has led to massive factory farms and pure evil on how those animals are treated to wind up in our grocery stores. Yes, HE ALLOWS it. That would be his "permissive will", right? If you are GOD and omnipotent, then you can do ANYTHING.
He chooses to NOT HELP. THAT was my point. He even chooses to not help when YOU ASK HIM TO HELP by prayer. You can blame all the evil in this world on Satan you want to....but, according to scripture, Satan can only do what god allows him to (if you read Job, that is).
According to Paul though, Satan is our main adversary....stealing, killing, and destroying. Much the same way that YHWH does in the OT. Interesting that it's ok for YHWH to "kill, steal and destroy", but not Satan.
So, who is MORE RESPONSIBLE? God or us?


In answer to your other question....Yes, I've been filled with the Holy Spirit. I experienced the baptism of fire and it was the most intense thing in my life. I've battled (or stomped as you put it), demonic entities. Yes, I've experienced all of that and more.
So, now what are you going to say? That I was never "saved"? It's funny how Christians have to make it all fit in the "biblical box". Sheesh.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

No, no, no. Don't twist Job. Satan can only harm a righteous man if God allows it, people not in a covenant relationship with Him do not have His hedge of protection around them. Evil exists, the kingdom of darkness exists, human beings have free will and often choose evil. I don't blame God for the works of the devil, the Bible says not to be ignorant of his devices.

And when have I judged you??? I didn't ask that question to judge you and say you were never saved. We are to strive to enter the narrow gate, to run the race, to overcome, and if you were once filled with the Spirit of God and a partaker that just means your day isn't done. He who began a good work in you will complete it. Just sounds to me like someone has spoken lies into your head, made you believe false Theology and you are raging at God because of it. That's finrle, but realize it's not God you're angry at, you're angry at Satan and blaming God for it.

Come out of the pig pen, come back to the Father's house.

Do you know what I used to live by? "though he slay me, yet I will trust him". That and, "please, make me like David...a woman after your own heart". Yea, I was totally in. Totally in love with god. Do you know how I see the above now? It's like being married to an abusive spouse. "See how much I love you....you are going to suffer, but count it all joy when you do, because it's all temporary....but, I love you".
When I was filled with the HS, I experienced the most intense love I'd ever felt. It can not even be described. I felt in tune with everything...nature, animals, etc.
But, now I seriously question if that love came from the "god of the OT". Or, YHWH. I do believe that Jesus showed us the character of the TRUE GOD. But, I also now think there are two gods (maybe more) represented in the bible. One good, one evil. I also am leaning towards the gnostic view that the god of this world is NOT the true Creator. He's an imposter.
It makes the whole, "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son", make much more sense. Jesus himself said his Kingdom was not of this world. So, if his kingdom was not of this world, then why the heck was YHWH building a kingdom through the Israelites, with temples for him to dwell in, to boot. If this world is not the true heavenly kingdom, then it's a knock off of what is truly good. It has beauty, but also death. Like I said, it's built on a complete predatory system. A TRUE God of love, would not create a world where animals kill and eat one another, or tell us to eat them, too. Or, put women beneath men. Or, have men write a freaking book that caused such dang division.
I even think Jesus' words have been "tweaked" or much of what he said left out of the bible. Still, if you are a truth seeker, you'll eventually see the dichotomy of lies and truth in it.
The Holy Spirit IS the "spirit of truth". Being given it has shown me that Paul is a lying jerk. That animals should not be eaten...and a whole bunch more.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Just sounds to me like someone has spoken lies into your head, made you believe false Theology and you are raging at God because of it.



No....I started to ask questions I'd long wondered about. I started to DIG. I started to find answers that made sense. I'm sick to death of "Theology". I spent 25 years dug into it.
I am not running a freaking race for God anymore. I also don't care for Paul's spiritual mumbo jumbo.
You know what? God owes all of us an apology....or whoever the heck thought it would be a good idea to get this ball rolling down here. IF, and I say that with a grain of salt, IF the whole Garden of Eden story is true...and this is where we wound up as species, the sole responsibility IS god's.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Come out of the pig pen, come back to the Father's house

Don't your own scriptures say:

Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

And I'm not quoting it because I agree with it. In this very thread, is at least one person who turned away and yet...

I seriously doubt that people who turn from a slavish scripture based understanding of God to a more personal understanding are somehow crucifying a son of God or putting him to shame. It seems quite the opposite to me.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Come out of the pig pen, come back to the Father's house

Don't your own scriptures say:

Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

And I'm not quoting it because I agree with it. In this very thread, is at least one person who turned away and yet...

I seriously doubt that people who turn from a slavish scripture based understanding of God to a more personal understanding are somehow crucifying a son of God or putting him to shame. It seems quite the opposite to me.

THANK YOU.

I actually had that scripture come to mind when Typical was responding to me, but didn't feel like looking it up.
Yea, there are so many contradictions between Paul and Jesus, it isn't even funny. Well, "theologians" can't really decide who wrote Hebrews...some say Paul, some say Barnabas, some don't know. Either way, you have Jesus saying "no one can snatch out of the Father's hand, those who have been given to him". Then, you have the above quote in Hebrews.
Like I said, all of Paul's (or his cronies) spiritual jargon, sounds pretty on the outside, but is laced with enough poison to cause the division in Christianity.
This whole world is a mess of dualities and polarities. It's ALL about creating division, hatred, wars, etc. Personally, I think something(s) feeds off of it, and religion is one of the main tools used to cause this negative energy/food for them.
I don't see it as simple as some entity called "Satan" anymore. It's way bigger than that. I don't have it all figured out, probably never will, but I still try.
I did the whole "Christianity" thing for over 2 decades. I also found it hollow in so many ways, and contradictory....and just plain hypocritical.
It's that "us against them" mentality I couldn't stomach anymore.
I probably sound really pissed at god. Maybe so, but I think it's more pissed at being blamed for this messed up world. I'm not groveling anymore for being a "dirty rotten sinner". I like gay people, I love animals, and I like most people. I feel like we're all stuck in this mess, through no fault of our own...yet, blamed for it while god gets a free pass.
The whole story of Job is disgusting. I mean, really? So many of the stories that I clung to, thinking they were true and right, now make me ill.
I gave my total devotion to something (god) and now I look around and think, "is this the best you can do, god?"
One of the things that broke my heart the most was realizing what we do to animals on this planet. I mean, it's horrendous. I wish I could stop it. I really, really, do. So, I had to ask myself, "why doesn't god?". That led into thinking of ALL the horrible atrocities that go on down here, and it's allowed. IF there is a loving creator, then where?
I'm not afraid to die, either. I'm not afraid of hell.
I did a bunch of study into quantum physics. You know, when you realize how HUGE and incredible all of the universe is, times infinity....then you go read all the shenanigans in the OT by this YHWH character, it makes him seem so dang petty and ridiculous. I mean, seriously......something that can create all that's "out there" beyond this planet, actually wants baby lambs throat's slit or cares about a woman being "unclean" on her menstrual cycle??? Good grief. I used to buy all of that, too. Yuck.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

You are entirely welcome. To flag the thread (if no one told you yet) just click on the flag at the top of the page and the number gets added to. To star a post just click the outline star at the top of the post and it gets filled in.

This is probably the best thread I've seen in a long time. I only read a little a couple days ago and didn't realize then where it was headed. Then today I came back and looked at the last page and was impressed by your remarks to NOTurTypical.

Now I must go back and read the whole thread.

My understanding is that the Old Testament god has changed and morphed many times in history.

I better read the thread now.

a reply to: pthena

Don't your own scriptures say?

Absolutely!! But what is the context of Hebrews and to whom was it written? It was written to newly converted Jews facing intense persecution while the temple was still standing. If your take of a scripture seems to contradict several other ones, it you who have a wrong comprehension of the scripture.

Prodigal son, Peter restored after denying Christ, there is only one unforgivable sin. They all flow together. What Hebrews 6 and 10 are admonishing Christians to do, is not to go back to the sacrificial system of Judaism to avoid persecution. There is no more atonement for sins under that system, there remains no other sacrifice besides Christ.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Hebrews 2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

and that help in the past was:

Hebrews 3:
7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

The story went that a whole generation died wandering in the desert. Glorious Exodus indeed!

But seriously, the Sinai words begin, "I am YHWH,your god, who brought you out of Egypt..."
Guess what... I'm not Abraham's and I never came from Egypt. I am not a party to any covenant with a minor tribal deity, no matter how many of the words of men written on stone, clay, parchment, paper, or binary code claims that I am.

The decades of my life spent considering myself to be such a party are a waste. To paraphrase Paul in Philippians 3, the sort of stuff flushed down the toilet. It's not only Paul in Galatians 3:29 who extends Abraham's seed universally, the whole Gospel of John universalizes some invitation also. So the popular Paul bashing that goes on should be toned down a bit, since the Gospels were written after he was dead, and I don't see much Paul bashing in those.
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Note to Thread Author
Sorry birdxofxprey, I'm ranting instead of reading. I like your thread.

a reply to: pthena

I ignore the Paul bashers. For two reasons, John, Jude, James, and especially Peter never called him out as a false teacher, and specifically Peter called him a beloved brother in 2 Peter. And secondly, none of the apostle's direct disciples like Polycarp or Clement said anything about him. Clearly if he were at odds with the 12 and teaching a false gospel then Peter and John would have mentioned it to their understudies.

Hebrews needs to be read in light of the context it was written. Exhorting Jewish Christians now to revert back to the sacrificial system of the temple. To apostacise back to Judaism to save themselves from persecution.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Well Mary being a prostitute and all those dudes following him around like fan boys called apostles were likely just waiting around learning his words for rhetoric and for him to screw up and cash in since Christ was against changing money for teachings etc... so hey they put their heads togther and capitalized after he was no longer... snagged his twin brother in a plot to seem like he came back and blamo the story fits and its all Ocean 14 style right out the front door.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

God bless you.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I ignore the Paul bashers.

I have a hard time ignoring it. There are some people who have reasons, legitimate for themselves, after much thought, to reject him as an authority over them.

Then there are people paid as part of a conspiracy to hand out pat "no real thought needed" compilations of Paul bashing materials, while pretending to honor the Jesus of the Gospels.

Those who are attempting true honesty could get confused by who's who.

But this thread isn't even about Paul at all. It's about the Genesis Paradox. In my estimation, the mainstream Christian view is best summarized here:

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Authority is really the central issue.
The story of Eden is the story of rejection of authority.
And the psychological motivation for the rejection of Biblical religion is mainly unwillingness to accept authority.
That is the human condition; we put our own egos at the centre of our world, and resent anything that threatens to override them.

The thread isn't directed to Christians specifically but many Christians, former Christians, and people familiar with Christian ideals and behavior participated.

Mark 11:27 They came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to Him, 28and began saying to Him, “By what authority are You doing these things, or who gave You this authority to do these things?”
29And Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question, and you answer Me, and then I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30“Was the baptism of John from heaven, or from men? Answer Me.”
31They began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ 32“But shall we say, ‘From men’?”—they were afraid of the people, for everyone considered John to have been a real prophet. 33Answering Jesus, they said, “We do not know.”
And Jesus said to them, “Nor will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”

Conversely: If someone were to ask, "By whose authority do you consider yourself belonging to Jesus as one of his own?"

Some may reason thus: "I was born in it, baptized and confirmed." Or "It's generally accepted in my country". Or "The preacher quoted a verse, I don't know where right off hand". Or "I read it for myself and can quote 14 hours worth of verses". Or "I can feel it to be true in my soul."

Of these responses, which seems the most subjective, unverifiable?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Kind of you to say, but wholly unneeded... which ever god you have fealty too I hope frees you one day.