Republican Congressman from S. Carolina rips into DHS official over no-fly no-buy list.

Look at that smiling smug (SNIP). This is going to turn into a self fulfilling prophesy for these maniacs. I'll bet that when they enact this treason all NRA members, Christians and anyone else Obama decides is not communist enough will be on this list.

I really could care less who makes a statement against these lists. Arguing about the back ground of who said it is merely a distraction from the root problem, and is nothing more than partisan bickering.

Think about it. A US citizen can be placed upon a list that restricts their travel. They are placed upon this list with no actual due process, trampling their 5th amendment rights. In other words: Guilty until proven innocent.

That's about as un-American as you can get. Never mind that the "No Fly List" technically is violating the actual Human Rights Charter.

Any US citizen can be placed on that list by the TSC, and is punished by not being allowed to fly outside of the US. There is no court case heard, where the TSC is required to prove that the individual is a danger and should not be allowed to travel outside of the US on board a commercial flight.

It's a travasty of the justice system and violation of not only constitutional rights, but our actual human rights as well.

Last count is that back in 2013 there were over 47,000 people on that list. All of them judged and found guilty by an actual non-judicial part of our federal government.

Now we have politicians and other influential people that want to add more lists like the no-fly list, that again, trample on our constitutional rights.

Bull crap. That's not what freedom is. That's what a police state, ruled by totalitarians is.

This all started with 9/11....and has been getting worse with each passing year, not better.

It really doesn't mater who speaks the truth, as long as the truth is spoken.

But go ahead....keep bickering over your Right/Left crap. All it shows is just how clueless each of you that do that are.

So what is it going to be? Are you going to stand up and speak out? Speak against these lists that violate our liberties?

Or are you all SO obsessed with Left/Right that you're willing to watch the Constitution get burned, just because you want to prove that "your guy/girl" is right?

It's pathetic.

For those that are interested, I believe that this contains the actual text of both proposals, at around the middle third of the page. The Democrat proposal is from Dianne Feinstein and is amendment numbered 4720, the second is a GOP amendment to Feinstein's amendment, numbered 4749 and submitted by Republican John Cornyn.

a reply to: Gryphon66

No legislation will go in place without a measure for due process, or it would immediately be found unconstitutional.

Excluding the Patriot Act, you mean?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Gryphon66

No legislation will go in place without a measure for due process, or it would immediately be found unconstitutional.

Excluding the Patriot Act, you mean?

The whole thing, a part of it, what?

I'd be glad to discuss facts.

originally posted by: gladtobehere

What also needs to be addressed is the fact that elected Representatives have handed over their law making power and responsibility to bureaucrats who make arbitrary rules which have the force of law.

None of these agencies have Constitutional authority to exist.

In which case all those bureaucrats would have to be arrested and thrown in jail, for violating the supreme law of the land. Where after they would get their day in court, to explain their actions. Just like every other law breaking citizen has to do. Thats why they can't tell the citizen that he has been put on a watchlist, and have to keep their activities secret. They are knowingly breaking the law. They are making up arbitrary laws, and enforcing them, outside the entire system of government which is divided into three parts deliberately to prevent such arbitrary abuse of power. It is common practice to do this for non-citizens, but citizens have different rights to aliens.

Unfortunately, for americans, the people doing these things don't even seem to have a clue what the law says.

Somehow, power has been transfered to the least educated, most clueless, un-read individuals in the nation, and nobody seems to know what to do about it.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

It was a much nicer place than my home state politically N.C. but... there was a great diversity between what is called the bottom or top.

Being viewed and labeled as a white male? It appeared just fine... but serices rendered depended on such bias being seen as a white male. Just because my native ancestors had blue eyes does not mean I am "white" and 43 and pretty slack on body/facial hair has nothing to do with my testoserone levels.

I get hit on both of my high cheek bones, and well im used to it, one adapts and one grows and if not? There is only stagnation in bias... that very bias that corrupts.

As Cherokeee, Powhattan and a small mix of European pirates from the coastal areas since and before this nation was founded... the linage is quite long, not without its faults of course, but it is our duty to not make them no matter who we are in this vast melting pot of a world. Lines belong on the palm not the ground... of course those palms or palmettos in S.C. are a nice thing to see even the ones transplanted from there to here in the downtown of my fair city.

The ideologies crossing both borders? Well depends on intent and purposes... When I went to college in Alabama it followed Florida like a shadow or younger brother. Many states function similarly...

Many want to be Texas Instruments, especially one recently saying Texas Texas Texas calling non stop. So who is living in Texas as a tax haven pulling strings or trying too?

Pretty transparent if you ask me. Maybe thats not what you asked... but as said? I know the politics.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Unlawful detention for one. As in indefinite, no charges filed and no court date. Implying unwarranted search and or seizure, for 'suspicious activity', completely determined not by law, but by the arresting agency.

a reply to: ketsukowell no crap . when ever you threaten to take something from some one there is gonna be a run on it threaten to ban alcohol next Wednesday everyday till then people are going to run out and clear the shelves. what i want to know is why is this a gun thing and not a thing where we are going after root cause this was an isis attack plain and simple . isis is controlled by saudi arabia so lets get boots on the ground and take them and there puppet masters out. yes this time a gun was used next time they might do something worse . what happens when they use that same security company to embed an operative somewhere else like a nuclear power plant or a dam and yes the Orlando shooter company has those kind of security contracts,-

originally posted by: vor78
For those that are interested, I believe that this contains the actual text of both proposals, at around the middle third of the page. The Democrat proposal is from Dianne Feinstein and is amendment numbered 4720, the second is a GOP amendment to Feinstein's amendment, numbered 4749 and submitted by Republican John Cornyn.

So Feinstein basically says 'reasonable suspicion' is enough to deny 2nd Amendment rights, and a bone is thrown to allow for judicial review of the procedures but not of any actual list.

Meanwhile McConnell's "SHIELD" amendment (ugh, really?) delays for up to three days to allow for a petition which the government pays for (including travel expenses and lawyer fees, I guess) but still keeps the list under Attorney General review and disclosure without any due process from other branches of government or notification to the people on the list.

So either way, you have a situation where American citizens that are or could be erroneously placed on a list have no knowledge of their status on said list until such time as they actually try to purchase a firearm, then they have to work to get their names off of the list.

This is what Gowdy was asking about. Is there any other situation where an American citizen already has to or would have to petition the government to claim their Constitutionally-protected rights?

a reply to: intrptr

In such a language... it means the holding agency has absolved itself of any wrong doing in such apprehensions.

So how can something legally be prosecuted when no one assumes responsibility for such actions? Well all the persons voting or signing such things of course are the ones that sponsored such yes? So there is accountability... just for the record as there is obvious a record of such if such is determined to be an abuse that the world does not favor as just in its cause or charge in making such determinations and using the law as their voice and not the peoples voice of whom they are supposed to represent, but the people obviously being represented comes into question... as corporations have been made into people.

Many people say since corporations are people, we can use corporate law as a person as an individual corporation each and every one of us, and treat corporations as people... that have personal biases and discriminations of all sorts... we can clearly see both sides in their arguments. As anyone wanting to be judged as a corporation can be detained indefinitely as a corporation is not a person so no human rights, however corporations have been made into people and allow just the same sort of bias as if they were.

So is this a balance of people and corporation hoping to become one? If we carry such things as bias into such a merger... then watch actually changes? Hate can be muted in a person and a corporation.

Like opinions? No one has to buy into either or put much stock in it as the saying goes. Of course there will always be such niche market for things... either enmass or in the individual. If society itself does not want to conglomerate on a mass scale... is that choice or a rebelion to do so?

Seems the stake is freedom of choice... and well the actual people see theirs being removed, which means no freedom, well people conglomerating into a corporation or group, say the same thing when they lose the right to refuse service.

So what is the real issue? Mixing up moral law and ethical law in the judicial system... such as rape having levels when rape is rape allowing a sentence that varies for the same crime... so the plea of charge or judgment when charging should be questioned. As we all know rape is unwanted sexual activity forced upon someone... the level of course should be based on contact not divisions in rape itself.

These sorts of divisions allow all kinds of loopholes and injustice in society that do not seem fair and balanced as far as equality goes... secular means speartion of moral from public sectors such as services offeed to the public and politics that is supposed to keep such belief from becoming a divide to reality we all share that is tangible.

Beleif is a human heritage of history and culture... often sold and pushed, no different that other things of belief such as creative works of art and music, film etc. so who owns the copy right to all that woo seems to be a very old argument... yet people still make money off of their own brand of woo as such experiences are personal unless shared.

Whether one takes stock in suchs things is choice... and if it isnt a choice? Its simply control. So it of course becomes and argument of who controls the market for such woo, if theres arguments over the creative rights itself.

This is likely why religion has been untaxed for so long... who owns the rights? Well the WHO or world health organization might agree that this argument is likely why the world has been sick for such a very long time.

Have you had your pill today? Do you know the effects it produces whatever that pill was in not only onself but the world? If not... then it leads to all those side effects people call arms... to either embrace or point and shoot with called beleif. Choose a belief as real and that embrace or pointing in judgment soon become interchangible extremes... as its only a matter of time when holding such bias.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

That's pretty much how I see it as well. Although I will continue to reiterate that I support the basic idea behind this, both proposals have serious flaws and create potential for abuse that prevent me from being able to support either of them, with the Democrat plan being significantly worse in that regard. At least the GOP made a half-assed attempt to address the due process concerns.

If they want a watchlist, why don't they to it the right way.

Any U.S. Citizen that is put on a watchlist, must be notified in writing immediately that they are on the list.

The letter of notification must include the following:

1) notification that you John Jones have been put on the watchlist

2) statement of reason for being put on the watchlist, i.e. a clear statement of what you did that made the athorities "suspicious" of you

3) services that are now to be denied to you John Jones, because of your particular status on the watchlist
e.g. no-fly
or no-buy
or no permission to leave the U.S.
or whatever

4) length of time your name is to remain on the watchlist, including Date of first entry, and Termination date of the watchlist with it's various restrictions

5) Name of the Officer signing the certificate authorizing your name to be put on the watchlist.
[Some individual must take responsibility for denying you rights.]

6) Information on how to appeal the status of being on the watchlist. I.e. which Government office to contact, and how to begin the process of getting your name off the list.

Citizens must be made aware of their change in status, and told how to appeal. They are entitled to the "reasons" for being accused or suspected. They pay taxes to have the government work for them. The public servants are exactly that "servants" of the people. If you hire a cook, maid, or Gardner, would you allow that person to make a secret watchlist on your family members, and deny some of your children food, or cleaning their room, because of their own secret decisions?

While I expected him to go on a little further, truer words have never been spoken. Those on the left (not all) who want to remove our Constitutional rights should be ashamed...but they won't be. Those that are politicians who pledge to uphold the Constitution should be fired and/or removed from office. And those citizens who wish to take these rights from other citizens don't belong here at all.

You can cry about guns and killings all you want. But the FACT is that a gun is nothing but a tool and you are fixing nothing by unconstitutionally take away other's rights. If you really cared about stopping murders such as Orlando, you would fix the problem...not target a symptom. For the potential terrorists that aren't here...don't let them come here. They won't be able to kill then. For those that are here...logically profile them (Muslim, male, young, etc.) and keep an eye on them. If and when they are deemed dangerous...lock them up or throw them out. They won't be able to kill then.

Anyway...great OP...great words from a logical, intelligent man. Many of you should open your ears and hear it instead of the lies YOUR leaders choke you with.

a reply to: intrptr

such a thing is guilty by habituation without room for change or judging a possible phoenix by its actions senario and fatalistic in nature towards nature... when one has reached such a level of control over others; might I suggest they try having it over themself to see just how little control, they actually have.

originally posted by: AMPTAH
If they want a watchlist, why don't they to it the right way.

Any U.S. Citizen that is put on a watchlist, must be notified in writing immediately that they are on the list.

The letter of notification must include the following:

1) notification that you John Jones have been put on the watchlist

2) statement of reason for being put on the watchlist, i.e. a clear statement of what you did that made the athorities "suspicious" of you

3) services that are now to be denied to you John Jones, because of your particular status on the watchlist
e.g. no-fly
or no-buy
or no permission to leave the U.S.
or whatever

4) length of time your name is to remain on the watchlist, including Date of first entry, and Termination date of the watchlist with it's various restrictions

5) Name of the Officer signing the certificate authorizing your name to be put on the watchlist.
[Some individual must take responsibility for denying you rights.]

6) Information on how to appeal the status of being on the watchlist. I.e. which Government office to contact, and how to begin the process of getting your name off the list.

Citizens must be made aware of their change in status, and told how to appeal. They are entitled to the "reasons" for being accused or suspected. They pay taxes to have the government work for them. The public servants are exactly that "servants" of the people. If you hire a cook, maid, or Gardner, would you allow that person to make a secret watchlist on your family members, and deny some of your children food, or cleaning their room, because of their own secret decisions?

While I follow you and support your intent...no legal American citizen should be put on any list that takes away their rights without FIRST being given a chance to argue it in court. I would change your beginning as follows. First...the police (or whomever) gets a warrant for their arrest, arrests them and takes them immediately to court where they get to confront their accusers in front of a civilian, non-government (eg. feds) judge.

You can't simply take away someone's rights without a legal reason. That is the biggest reason the right won't accept gun control laws. The left wants there to be no reason needed to take away guns, keep people from traveling...hell...I'm sure they would like to lock people up too without any reason.

Why do the left want this? They only tell you lies. The truth is...they want power over you and the ability on a whim to shut you up by either locking you up or the threat of locking you up. Those who are part of that are the enemy and it isn't all of the left. But it is most of those in office.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Corporations want people status to get out of accountability, but dismiss it when it comes to taxes. I'll let them have "people too" status when they pay 33 percent federal tax.

Maybe then they can fix the potholes on my street.

a reply to: AMPTAH

1) notification that you John Jones have been put on the watchlist

2) statement of reason for being put on the watch list, i.e. a clear statement of what you did that made the authorities "suspicious" of you

That'll never happen.

Because the reasons are unwarranted. You are a threat to them because you stand up for your rights and seek justice. They violate that everywhere and can ill afford to have whistle blowers and or 'activists' exposing their lies and abuses.

In the name of goodness they promote a wider police state and authoritarian control.

Gun Show Loopholes are mostly exploited by Patriotic families who want to save themselves from future tyranny, and by ATF and FBI agents going undercover trying to find patsies to arrest to promote the antigun agenda. Most terrorists get their weapons either through direct legal means, or illegally in warehouses, basements, and so forth.

Because gunlists are used for door to door knocking and confiscation, gun show loop holes are essential to preserving citizen liberty. Meanwhile,

terrorist watch lists... these are the people who are able to put you on a terrorist watch list...

Airport Service Providers — Includes on-craft providers: baggage, cleaners, cargo, catering, mechanics, ground crew, food service, cleaners, security, taxi, limos, and shuttles.
Beauty/Drug Suppliers — People who have burn marks, missing limbs, travel a long distance, nervous, who are picked up, make illogical requests (even of consumer-grade products).
Bulk Fuel Distributors — New customers not from the area, those using cash for large transactions, nervous, large purchases, having a rental vehicle.
Construction Sites — People with environmental slogans and/or anti-government slogans, banners or signs that threaten or imply violence.
Dive/Boat Shops — New customers reluctant to provide complete personal information, customer who does not have certification, using cash for expensive transactions, extended rentals, appearing uninterested in safety rules, experiencing guarded behavior.
Electronics Stores — Person who alters appearance from visit to visit (changing hair color, shaving, etc.), fills a “shopping list” of components while lacking knowledge about their use. Pays cash for large purchases.
Farm Supply Stores — New customers not from the area, nervous or impatient, suspicious inquiries regarding equipment specifications, failing to state legitimate use for supplies, rental vehicle, cash for large transactions.
Financial Institutions — No evidence for legitimate business activity, those with multiple accounts, banks, parties, and jurisdictions (layering). Mixed deposits (money orders, third-party checks, and/or payroll into a business account). Large volume of wire transfers, or repetitive patterns, shell entities, “pass through” points by foreign jurisdictions.
General Aviation — Taking flying lessons but appear uninterested, renting under vague reasons for doing so, requests to fly over specific locations without substantiated reason, taking pictures or videos of potentially sensitive locations, actions outside the norm, parking near the perimeter of airport, asking questions without substantiation.
General Public — Basically everything exhibited by those with an inquisitive nature: questions, note taking, drawing, annotating maps, inappropriate photos or videos, people in places where they do not belong.
Hobby Shops — Interest in remote-controlled aircraft, interest that does not seem genuine, possessing little knowledge of purchase, exhibiting unusual interest, exhibiting no interest, using cash for large transactions.
Home Improvement and Large Retail Stores — Large quantity of ammunition, firearms and ammunition out of season, combination of unusual items, interest in night vision and camouflage apparel, purchases of pipe fittings and supplies, rental vehicle, refusal to complete firearms paperwork, using cash for large transactions.
Hotels/Motels — There is an excellent discussion of this section in Michael Snyder’s recent article.
Internet Cafes — There is an excellent discussion of this section in Michael Snyder’s recent article.
Shopping Malls — Wearing backpacks, discreet use of cameras, note-taking, or video over an extended period, several men arriving together then splitting up, continuing to communicate (dry run?), speaking to security guards, comments regarding radical theology, vague or cryptic warnings, or anti-U.S. sentiments that appear out of place and provocative.
Martial Arts/Paintball — Insist on paying with cash, travels long distance to participate, interest in learning offensive moves in a confined space, learning the use of hidden weapons, learning kill and restraint techniques with no occupational need, group training, uttering racist, religious, unusual, anti-US, or vague and cryptic warnings, close combat training, paintball tactics of ambush or kidnapping scenarios, operating a private facility, converting large plots of rural land to conduct these activities.
Mass Transportation — Altering one’s appearance, exhibiting burns, bleached body hair, concealed wires, nervous, actions suggesting use of a hidden camera, unusual comments, questioning security/facility personnel via normal means of communication, groups arriving together then splitting up and communicating via cell phone.
Military Surplus — Demanding identity privacy, insisting on paying with cash, suspicious comments, bulk purchases.
Peroxide Explosives — Unknown customer, individual requesting more information.
Recognizing Sleepers — Arrival from countries where violent militant Islamic groups are known to operate, long unexplained absences, fury at the West for reasons ranging from personal problems to global policies of the U.S., conspiracy theories about Westerners (e.g. the CIA arranged for 9/11 to legitimize the invasion of foreign lands), accusing the West of trying to destroy Islam.
Rental Cars — Reluctance to provide complete personal information, using cash, unusual questions.
Rental Properties — Using cash for large transactions, inquiries about local sites, refusing maintenance or service over extended time, not using property for intended purpose, unusual number of package deliveries, unusual amounts of traffic, discovery of unusual items.
Rental Trucks — Reluctance to provide personal information, cash for large transactions, inquiries about renting a truck with a wooden floor, questions about vehicle specifications.
Storage Facilities — Failing to provide complete personal information, using cash to pay fees in advance, placing unusual items in storage, disposing of tools, gloves, masks, or clothing, discarding clothes or shoes in new condition, avoiding contact with rental facility personnel, accessing facility an unusual number of times, storing items that emit unusual odors or leak liquids.
Tattoo Shops — Demanding identity “privacy,” paying cash, altering appearance (beard, hair style, hair color, style of dress, etc.), making racist or extreme statements, suspicious comments that suggest or appear to endorse violence in support of a cause, repeated returns with multiple individuals requesting identical tattoos, inquiries about unusual methods of tattooing or placement which could allow the concealment of extremist symbols.

Source: www.activistpost.com...

We really need to watch out for those "AR-47s" Whatever those are.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Gryphon66

Unlawful detention for one. As in indefinite, no charges filed and no court date. Implying unwarranted search and or seizure, for 'suspicious activity', completely determined not by law, but by the arresting agency.

Not for American citizens ... isn't the usual argument on the Right that the Constitution doesn't apply to internationals?