The God of John's gospel, the God of the Old Testament

a reply to: Kantzveldt
So the Universal Creator is exploiting the El Shaddai concept and other concepts as a way of introducing himself and building up a relationship.

a reply to: Akragon

Love and Jealousy are not compatible with each other... How can this god be a jealous one, and for that matter what could he possibly be jealous of... being the creator of all?

Just my 2 cents on that matter.

In my opinion it depends on the context and they can be compatible. For example, i am working as CAD-Designer in the Car-Indusrty. In my job i am creating concepts, and find technical solutions for different parts of the Car, be it Interior or exterior. The love that i have for my job, can make me jealous. I do not mean in negative way of "jealousy" but on the positive way as i want the best.

So me being jealous in my job as CAD-Designer, does that make me an evil person? The same can be said about God. God loves His creation, loves His people and wants the best for them.

Peace

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: ASIAHXPAORSBA

Of course they literally saw that aspect of God as it specifically names the God that appeared to Jacob as El Shaddai,

He didn't give Jacob a name. He refused.

that also appeared to Abraham as a man at Mamre, the progenitor and tutelary God of Israel, there is no reason that Jesus couldn't be the likeness of El Shaddai, the Father of Israel.

I didn't say he couldn't be, but he is far from the likeness of the God of the OT in every way.

Historically speaking, in all honesty and from much research, I don't believe that El Shaddai and Yahweh were the same God.

YHVH is post second temple and his name was placed in pre first temple books, even in Genesis.

Israel is not the forever monotheistic religion everyone thinks.

Then or now. They are more secretive than an off shore bank and quite deceptive.

Plus, how is Jesus the only begotten Son?

The OT God had Sons. They change it to angels sometimes but how can Jesus be the only Son of God when he had Sons already, begotten through Asherah?

And YHVH was one, who used to be Baal.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I see you are not too keen on responding to my perfectly valid questions and comments.

Too difficult?

a reply to: ASIAHXPAORSBA
I explained my reasons when you were posting as Capstone Pendulum and repeated them for some of your other accounts.
You now have a history on these boards of multiple accounts and claimed viewpoints which vary from one account to another.
In other words, you have established yourself in our awareness as a conscious deceiver, someone whose primary interest is in self-entertainment rather than truth.
As a result, nothing you say has any value, and there is no need for me to respond to your posts in detail.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DISRAELI

No one has seen God at ANY time...

Penuel, the place Jacob wrestled with God is named so because Jacob saw God face to face yet his life was spared.

Jesus is saying to know me is to know the Father to the people that knew him best... but a son is the image of his Father, and not his own Father

how does one Equate an image with reality... as IF what we see in a mirror is equal to our being

Jesus is nothing like Yahweh and you are being rude not responding, you are the OP, no?

The Father of Jesus is unknowable except through Jesus teachings. He is not the OT, vengeful, wrathful, evil jealous God of the OT.

Jesus is supposed to be the closest we can come to knowing the real God.

Silent contemplation helps, meditation, prayer, finding meaning to the texts other than the silly idea that it is pure history.

An image is real because it exists. It may be a reversal bit it is real.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ASIAHXPAORSBA
I explained my reasons when you were posting as Capstone Pendulum and repeated them for some of your other accounts.
You now have a history on these boards of multiple accounts and claimed viewpoints which vary from one account to another.
In other words, you have established yourself in our awareness as a conscious deceiver, someone whose primary interest is in self-entertainment rather than truth.
As a result, nothing you say has any value, and there is no need for me to respond to your posts in detail.

So, because I proved you made an incorrect statement you are going to invent out of thin air a reason that would not be valid were it true?

You are telling lies and reppin' Christianity, something not uncommon.

But it is obvious you just don't have an answer and are taking the sleezy route.

You got no business guessing what is in my mind. I have fun and exchange knowledge, I asked you to explain how you could say nobody ever saw God?

Because it is not true. Is that not a perfectly relevant questions?

It's OK, I understand, you probably have a rep as Bible guy on here (or think you do).

I could make up things about you too, but am I?

You are immature son. Just say you didn't know.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I think you need to question that assumption, i think it's more the case that El Shaddai takes the Universal Creator premise with regards to the empirical construct and applies such in a limited sense in terms of tribal establishment, given that is entirely based upon genealogy i don't see how it can suddenly transform into a spiritual edifice, though of course that's the case that Christian tradition makes and that's what i'm questioning.

a reply to: ASIAHXPAORSBA

I didn't say he gave Jacob a name though he did, Exodus 6:3 And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, the only consideration of likeness is with regards to Jesus and El Shaddai not that all given aspects of Deity are directly equative.

How can you say nobody saw God face to face when Jacob did?

I think it's more the case that how can you state that i said it unless you're totally bonkers...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: DISRAELI

I think you need to question that assumption, i think it's more the case that El Shaddai takes the Universal Creator premise with regards to the empirical construct and applies such in a limited sense in terms of tribal establishment, given that is entirely based upon genealogy i don't see how it can suddenly transform into a spiritual edifice, though of course that's the case that Christian tradition makes and that's what i'm questioning.

How can you say nobody saw God face to face when Jacob did?

You must not know the Bible very well.

And by not answering me I have every right to keep asking until I get an answer.

Otherwise everyone can assume you are unknowledgeable and don't want to face it.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
I don't see how it can suddenly transform into a spiritual edifice, though of course that's the case that Christian tradition makes and that's what i'm questioning.

I don't regard it as a sudden transformation but as a long and gradual process.
I see the Biblical God as a patient teacher, willing to take time to transform what he finds (a tendency to focus on local spiritual powers) into what he wants (an acknowledgement of himself as the Creator).

I asked bisraeli how he could say nobody has ever seen God? He refuses to answer me and is even making stuff up about me to avoid the discomfort of being wrong. I have been polite and respectful so I can only assume he is embarrassed. Cheer up dude, if you don't have an answer you can admit it. It is better than lying, which is what claiming untrue things is called. I have done nothing but ask a legitimate question.

edit on 18-6-2016 by ASIAHXPAORSBA because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Kantzveldt

That message wasn't to you about Jacob.

And the El Shaddai in your comment is why I said the other thing.

I don't think I even addressed that other comment to you but if I did I didn't notice.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

In fact, it says it was to Israeli. I just quoted you.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes but it's the transformation of the basic premise of El Shaddai with regards to the Divine personification of Israel into a spiritual based construct that needs to be questioned not the timescale, given also that seemingly Sumerian scribes were entirely capable of seeing the likes of the Amorites as a construct in exactly the same manner then also the uniqueness of their case, the Sumerians weren't exactly flattering when it came to illustrating the characteristics of the Amorite tutelary Diety Amurru/Martu but simply recognized the greater Theological premise that all were an aspect of the Divine, the Amorites didn't take it seriously either because there is no evidence for his cultic worship...the danger lies in replacing an actual God Almighty with Israel.

a reply to: ASIAHXPAORSBA

That message wasn't to you about Jacob.

And the El Shaddai in your comment is why I said the other thing.

Well if you reply to and quote my post perhaps i can be forgiven for thinking that it was...

a reply to: DISRAELI

I guess by not answering my question and fibbing to justify it tells everyone what kind of person you are, as opposed to what you claim.

As such nothing you say has any value. I answer tough questions when people ask me. So why is it you think you have the right to say a word about me?

Are you too good to defend your own quote?

Jacob wrestling with God is one of the most memorable events in the Bible and the source of the name Israel.

I just want to know how someone who is supposedly knowledgeable about the Bible could not know that .

Puts a big hole in your credibility as a Bible student.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
But it is notoriously the case that the followers of the Old Testament God are not allowed to recognise other gods as "aspects of the divine". "You shall have no other gods but me". It's all or nothing.
So my premise is that the Creator God observes a human world which believes in local spiritual powers, and deliberately attaches himself to one of them, with a view to establishing communication and a long-term relationship which can gradually be extended to the world at large.
From the Christian angle, this premise is endorsed by the fact that Jesus takes exactly the same view; his God is the God who has been speaking in the Old Testament all the way back to Abraham, the God who also identifies himself as the Creator of the world.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I guess by not answering my question and fibbing to justify it tells everyone what kind of person you are, as opposed to what you claim.

As such nothing you say has any value. I answer tough questions when people ask me. So why is it you think you have the right to say a word about me?

Are you too good to defend your own quote?

Jacob wrestling with God is one of the most memorable events in the Bible and the source of the name Israel.

I just want to know how someone who is supposedly knowledgeable about the Bible could not know that .

Puts a big hole in your credibility as a Bible student.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I'm not mad, and why would you need to be forgiven?

If you want to see the message go back and look at it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

As is generally understood and as Genesis 17 makes clear all other aspects of the Divine were assimilated into the cult of YHWH, the God that Abraham knew being El Shaddai the tribal Deity, but that hardly seems to have become irrelevant as again is indicated in your opening post, as the Father in that context is El Shaddai, a cult of the Divine ancestor.

Your suggested premise isn't a bad one in terms of a useful way to go about things but i would seriously question the duplicity involved in the transformation of the cult of the Divine ancestor into God Almighty, because that is who the man that appeared to Abraham and Jacob is given to be understood as, and on an incorrect basis.

There have always been huge difficulties with the Theological perspective of the three men that appeared to Abraham and were in subsequent chapter two of these are identified as Angels, the likely answer is that they related to the sacred mountain of the horizon which was the zodiacal light and were thus planets/spiritual forces seen to emerge from it, the same spiritual aspects understood as dwelling within man or Angels in the guise of such, thus the man in question representing a spiritual force or quality, most likely Jupiter as ruler of the mountain and planets, related to empiricism in general.

Of course that also leads on to the fact that El Shaddai had to be an aspect of Elohim, a localized cult of El as the leader of those hosts, were Mamre remained a traditional site of Angel veneration into the Christian era common to numerous Semitic tribes, but all of that was understood as assimilated into the cult of YHWH which could provide the only basis for El Shaddai as Father and a man creating the world...but it's a stretch.

You're free to cherry pick and choose your favorite scriptures and ignore others and define your christian belief, but there are thousands of different interpretations, congregations and denominations.

And none of us are going under your beliefs.

I personally don't need to counter scripture with scriptures, not that it works that way, because its all a retelling of Sumar and gnostic scripts.

I just can read, see what it means, reject or accept it and have the same discernment when I read as is metaphorically described when Jesus was tested concerning the old testament and a woman caught in the act of adultery.

He wrote in the sand with his finger to show he had authority over his own discernment like we're all supposed to do, and not buy an ideology or ISM 100% and become zombies and slaves.

Old testament gods were annanuki, flesh and blood ETs, and not really good guys.

Christ, or Christ consciousness is about the real Higher Mind, Love and Goodness, and how to achieve Higher Mind.