After Orlando, time to recognize that anti-gay bigotry is not religious freedom: Neil Macdonald

originally posted by: Annee

You have no clue.

You are completely wrong.

No?.. You are going to tell me a majority of atheists don't discriminate against religious people? We can even see it here when some liberal members state their contempt for religious people, and i am not talking about crazy religious fanatics like Muslim extremists, but regular religious people...

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

We already have laws against discrimination, and against violent crimes. What seems to be proposed in the OP is laws against religious freedom, and that would be bad for everyone.

No, Christians are proposing and writing NEW laws, all across the country, that allow them to bypass discrimination laws, to discriminate indiscriminately against people that they disagree with.

That's not the case at all. People simply want a right to not be forced to partiipate in something with which they disagree, and they have that right. Forcing someone to do commerce is not freedom; it's slavery. Let the market decide.

a reply to: Grambler


Any law that allows people to conspire against a group or an individual to deny them employment, housing, food, fuel and medical care, based on religious bias and superstition, also allows for that individual or group to be purposefully neglected to death. That is what these state's, so called, Religious Freedom and Restoration Acts do.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Nobody is forced to "do commerce".

a reply to: JimBielson

JB, I understand your response, but I was raised by Freewill Baptists from Eastern Kentucky. I had an Asian girlfriend once and was nearly castrated. My mom hated my British wife because she thought she was Catholic! Blacks, homos, spics, "those poor people", "look what they are wearing". These hateful comments from my own parents shaped my being....one of total opposition to their attitude. I get they were raised in ignorance, but like my other post stated, all humans have felt the wrath of another human, all while the creator has stood by and done nothing. Faith is waning for me with each passing atrocity.

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

We already have laws against discrimination . . . What seems to be proposed in the OP is laws against religious freedom, and that would be bad for everyone.

Why would we need a law against religious freedom? As you said, we already have laws against discrimination; religious freedom laws are simply the right to discriminate under the guise of religious freedom.

Are you proposing to do away with religious freedom? Seems to be the intent of your statement.

originally posted by: Liquesence
No, what seems to be proposed in the OP is making sure laws aren't passed that *allow* discrimination while hiding behind religion, especially in private businesses that accommodate the public.

Not what was said. Plus, a business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason. It's his business, after all. Any other system isn't free. If someone wants to refuse service to whomever, as a private business, they should be allowed. People can then decide whether or not to do business with that company. Forcing someone to do something in their business that is against their beliefs is wrong. We don't force a Jewish or Muslim deli to serve bacon or ham. Why should we force a Christian baker to make cakes for homosexual weddings? There is no difference. No one has a right to demand that anyone bake them a cake. Forcing that is slavery.

originally posted by: Liquesence

Any law that restricted what people were allowed to believe would be equally as bad.

Agreed. But, I don't recall the OP or myself ever saying anything about outlawing what people believe.

On page one, a comment was made about laws regarding religious freedom. Ask the OP what he meant. We already have laws for religious freedom. Anything added threatens freedom. We have laws against inciting violence, or committing it, already. We don't need provisions limiting free speech and the free expression of religion. This would be dangerous. Note how some politicians say "freedom to worship". instead of freedom of religion. They want to rewrite the Constitution, or perhaps eliminate it. One of them stated as much.

originally posted by: Liquesence

Are we to simply toss out the Constitution?

The rest of you post is a hyperbolic slippery slope argument and is not realistic in the context of preventing discrimination by not allowing the passage of religious "freedom" laws. In fact, it's quite the opposite of "tossing out the constitution" but rather maintaining the constitutional principles of equality and *not* passing discriminatory legislation.

It's more than realistic!! Vague laws are passed all the time that require legal cases,a nd court decisions, to "clarify" what is meant. This is a way to effectively bypass Congress, and to bring about laws that no one actually voted for, or against, through court decisions. That's not how the system is supposed to work, but it happens.

I think someone who stood up and preached hate of people would be wrong, because my beliefs state to "hate the sin, not the sinner", basically. Hating someone because they do something we don't like helps no one. However, I won't demand that no one fel differently! I won't attend a church that doesn't fit my beliefs, but I won't tell them they don't have a right to theirs. We can debate, and disagree, and even argue, but we have the right to not agree with one another. We have a right to not participate in or support something with which we disagree. We don't have a right to kill someone beause their beliefs are different from our own. We don't have a right to attack someone for that.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Unfortunately the whole idea of atheism is to discriminate.

Atheism tells us what is right and what is wrong. IT IS DISCRIMINATION.

Nope.

No.
Atheists are simply able to identify jackasses from genuinely compassionate people....because they aren't indoctrinated into any specific clan of believers. Free thinkers.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Hey...Christian here, and informing you politely that I take offence at your portrayal of atheists.

Some of the most Christian people I know would rather use radioactive shampoo than enter a church, or pray to a God. But they also refuse to judge anyone, me included, for my life choices, which is ironic, because I was sure I read somewhere that none of us are fit to judge our fellow man, and yet it is a habit I see from people who profess to my faith CONSTANTLY!

Atheists saved my life on quite a few occasions. Not believing in God does not make someone incapable of compassion, love, or respect for their fellow man. To be quite honest, paradoxically, most self described Christians could learn a thing or two about how to go about BEING Christians, from the atheists I know. So please, can the divisive, borderline hate speech.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Annee

You have no clue.

You are completely wrong.

No?.. You are going to tell me a majority of atheists don't discriminate against religious people? We can even see it here when some liberal members state their contempt for religious people, and i am not talking about crazy religious fanatics like Muslim extremists, but regular religious people...

I was raised Christian. I'm well aware of the Christian Persecution Complex.

And if a Christian does something bad - - - "he's not really a Christian". He just gets dismissed.

How many atheists do you personally know?

Atheism is lack of belief in a God/Deity - - nothing more, nothing less.

An atheist is an individual, beyond Lack of Belief in a God, each has their own personal beliefs/philosophies. Has nothing to do with anyone else.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Are you proposing to do away with religious freedom? Seems to be the intent of your statement.

No, I'm not, and never suggested as much. I've been pretty clear. You do not have the right to legally discriminate against others while trying to hide behind religion.

Not what was said.

Straight from the OP:

Not wanting to serve people because of your feelings towards them is not your right or your freedom in the 21st century.

The implication of the OP was not passing "religious freedom" laws in order to legally discriminate while hiding behind religion. I presume Tenth would agree with me.

Plus, a business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason. It's his business, after all. If someone wants to refuse service to whomever, as a private business, they should be allowed.

That's your opinion. I, and the law, disagree that you can't refuse based upon race, creed, etc; it's discrimination; hence the Civil Rights act.

If and should. But they can't. And the "religious freedom" laws do attempt to do exactly what what you expressed should happen: discriminate.

Requiring a dress code is significantly different than refusal because of race/creed/sexual orientation/etc.

We can debate, and disagree, and even argue, but we have the right to not agree with one another.

Agreed. And I feel I have been more than clear on my points, points I have made multiple times because it all boils to the same thing.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: JimBielson

JB, I understand your response, but I was raised by Freewill Baptists from Eastern Kentucky. I had an Asian girlfriend once and was nearly castrated. My mom hated my British wife because she thought she was Catholic! Blacks, homos, spics, "those poor people", "look what they are wearing". These hateful comments from my own parents shaped my being....one of total opposition to their attitude. I get they were raised in ignorance, but like my other post stated, all humans have felt the wrath of another human, all while the creator has stood by and done nothing. Faith is waning for me with each passing atrocity.

You can say he stood by and did nothing but you got your wisdom from somewhere. Maybe your wisdom came from just your reflection but something put it in your heart to now follow them but follow another creed..

I really think this has nothing to do with gay bigotry, ISIS or anything external to the LGBT community. He was either tormented by the fact that he was gay or, and this is probably more the case, he was laughed at and bullied in the very clubs he went to. We all know how vicious people can be and the LGBT are not exempt from being viscous or incendiary.

Some of the questions he probably got were "Why are you not out and proud?" or "I am not going to be with someone that is not going to openly gay with his family and mine." Or maybe he got a bit too drunk and argumentative and someone threatened to out him which it self is a tactic of a bully.

It was either along those lines or he was self tormented and he bullied himself.

In either case, the LGBT community has more culpability in this nightmare than they are willing to admit and they are trying to project guilt on the rest of us. They need to be called out on their B.S. or marginalized as incoherent and a group without reason.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
No?.. You are going to tell me a majority of atheists don't discriminate against religious people? We can even see it here when some liberal members state their contempt for religious people, and i am not talking about crazy religious fanatics like Muslim extremists, but regular religious people...

That because religion is false and to believe in such nonsense is juvenile. Difficult to take someone serious who never grew out of their bed time stories.

originally posted by: JimBielson
In either case, the LGBT community has more culpability in this nightmare than they are willing to admit and they are trying to project guilt on the rest of us. They need to be called out on their B.S. or marginalized as incoherent and a group without reason.

Where is your evidence?

a reply to: JimBielson

What the devil are you talking about?

Bunch of people get shot in a gay bar, and it's their fault?

I would tell you precisely what I think of this victim blaming abortion of a post, but I believe that doing so would get me banned from the entire internet.

God have mercy upon you, even as you show none to others. God help you.

a reply to: JimBielson

My wisdom? I wouldnt call it that. I just see that nothing has changed since Jacob and Esau. This is not a today issue, this is a fatal flaw in our very DNA of which we cannot escape. 2000 years since Jesus and nothing has changed. Hate, slavery, it's all still here. 24 years of military service should harden a fellow, but it has made me more deeply aware of the tragedy that is being human, and the pain and suffering we love to inflict on our own species.

originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: JimBielson
In either case, the LGBT community has more culpability in this nightmare than they are willing to admit and they are trying to project guilt on the rest of us. They need to be called out on their B.S. or marginalized as incoherent and a group without reason.

Wouldn't it be nice if you had any evidence of anything you just said?

Its just as valid a point as blaming Christians. This whole threat is predicated on the fact that there was some religious fanaticism or some form of gay bigotry in the motive. We are now hearing he was a Homosexual that frequented these clubs.

Now, if he was not a Homosexual why would he be there not just once but many times over and over. His ex-wife said he was gay and many are not reporting he was asking men out.

This is an opposing view based on evidence that is developing and I would say it lends weight to the conversation as much as you don't want to hear it.

a reply to: JimBielson

Dude, that is the most un-jesus like post ever......ever. This is what I am talking about. This is not a religious issue, this was a sick, mental, twisted person who had no regard for others of his own species. He is no different than the hoards of other humans who have tormented and killed other humans thruout history... for whatever sick reason presented itself at he time.

a reply to: JimBielson

Well perhaps if you want to believe something so badly, then you can convince yourself that it's the gay community's fault and not heavily religiously motivated at all.

You have to right to be horrifyingly incorrect, I suppose.

This is the situation:

Mateen claimed allegiance to Islamic State during his murderous rampage through the packed Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Flor­ida, at 2am on Sunday. Previously he had falsely boasted of links to Hezbollah and of having family ties to al-Qa’ida members. He went to the same mosque as America’s first suicide bomber in Syria and reportedly believed the US deserved Osama bin Laden’s 2001 attacks.

This is the reason you're blaming the homosexuals:

The revelation came amid claims by Mateen’s ex-wife Sitora Yusufiy that he had “gay tendencies” and reported comments by a former college classmate that ­Mateen was a closet homosexual.

This thread just keeps getting stranger and stranger.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: JimBielson

What the devil are you talking about?

Bunch of people get shot in a gay bar, and it's their fault?

I would tell you precisely what I think of this victim blaming abortion of a post, but I believe that doing so would get me banned from the entire internet.

God have mercy upon you, even as you show none to others. God help you.

I am not blaming the victims for the violence. What I am saying is he frequented these clubs on many occasions. What I am saying is there is more evidence coming to light on motive and this it is an ulterior motive based on what that evidence is panning out to be.

If you feel offended by a theory on motive so bit it, that is your prerogative. Using the fail safe of Christian blaming is about as absurd as it gets but I refuse to be offended by that. Its the small mind that draws a line from this nightmare to Christians.

If he was bullied in these clubs does that not factor into the conversation or is that just reserved for when people not of the LGBT equation commit the act? If he was bullied and that set him off who's fault is that? It sure isn't Christians and it sure isn't Muslims. It was him. It seems he was either tormented externally or internally or both and ISIS was just an excuse to cover for what he was really feeling.

It wasn't anyone else that committed or contributed to the crime outside the LGBT community if being bullied was the ultimate trigger. We know for a fact it wasn't Christians that contributed to this in any from or fashion as being proposed in this thread and elsewhere across the Internet.

As much as it offends your sensibilities, its a theory. Feel free to ignore it..