Can anyone Achieve financial success and wealth?

originally posted by: intrptr

So then ambition, hard work and money are the key to success?

I beg to differ.

"You keep busting your hump like that your'e going to have a 16 million dollar funeral." -- Rodney Dangerfield (paraphrased), from that golf movie.

No, I mean this thread was about financial success or wealth. You measure that with your own yardstick as was mentioned in another post. Hard work and ambition are the two keys. The third would be perseverance. I'm just saying that, at least here in the USA, if you think there's a ceiling over how much money you can make, you're wrong. Hard work can over come it. Hard work might mean writing business plans at night after you get off work or reading business books or sales books at night before bed. Hard work might mean taking a part time job in an industry that interests you even though you're tired from your day job. You don't think success is available to everyone?

Just want to add that the main points are ...

It is possible for anyone to start achieving some level of wealth. And that the freedom and ability to pursue that wealth is more important than the wealth itself.

a reply to: amazing

In my opinion, TRUE wealth has little to do with money, the same for success.

You ARE rich in financial wealth, but you are obviously nowhere near the point in a life where you consider you have enough to truly enjoy and relish what you actually have right now, hence the reason for a new SUV and motorcycle etc. The fact that you continue to work so hard to make more kinda proves you have become an unwitting slave to money also.

One day you may realise that it's not the money that makes you happy, but the things and the situations it has brought that cannot be bought.

When you are able to realise those things without the money, then you are truly wealthy in a way that outweighs anything financial but in a spiritual way. Priceless.

I've worked hard most of my life at not having to work hard and have now reached a position in life I NEVER imagined I would get to. I have learned how to barter well using my myriad of practical skills, how to appreciate things that others take for granted, how to make good life decisions, and most importantly, how to see the difference between needs and wants which makes even the simplest of things seem like luxury.

Good luck with the grind, you may need it when you wonder what the hell you are doing one day and why your interpretation of "success" has led to something so shallow.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: amazing

Then my question would be, how much success can you have in Liberia?

How much role does luck play?

I believe when you put a successful person in hard circumstances they will again become successful and when you put an unsuccessful person in an affluent situation they will again find themselves in dire straits after a time.

Why? Habits and attitude.

a reply to: Metallicus

That's true but if I drop you in Syria right now how far will that principle take you?

a reply to: onequestion

It would likely get you killed there.

Disclaimer: This post is not specifically about this thread but about several/many threads LIKE this one that I have seen lately.

======

Although it's not the end of the world, I have to admit that it "grinds my gears" anytime anyone introduces a thread that details possible pathways to success (which is admittedly a relative term).... it is almost always and almost immediately met with accusations of "luck."

Can someone say that a person born in a developed part of the world is lucky? Sure.
Can someone say that a person born to a rich family might be lucky? I suppose so.

That being said and in my opinion, as far as I can tell the "pathways to success" threads are inherently about the developed world and about people that are not born wealthy.

Of course we are all biased (to an extent) based on our own experiences and history. The best way I can think of to describe my frustration is with my own experience.

I've already posted a way-too-long post in this thread about my history but to make a long story short, I spent years working many, MANY types of jobs until I found one that had a future. I'm always shocked (and in rare occasions almost offended) to hear people tell me, "Wow. You sure got lucky that you got that job." That is absurd! I had worked many jobs to find "that one" and if "that one" wasn't "THE one" I would have left there to keep looking and exploring until I found "THE one." That isn't luck at all. That is perseverance. That is dedication to the IDEA that opportunity is out there, if someone is willing to keep looking for it and chasing it like a cheetah stalks a gazelle.
(Apologies if I have my big cat vs type of prey mixed up).

I find pushing the "Luck Agenda" (for lack of a better phrase) to be very irresponsible. It may cause people to think that there is very little they can do to determine their own future. It may cause people to accept a crappy job and not seek something better because "if they are lucky" their crappy job will somehow, as if by magic, create opportunity.

I'm a firm believer in the self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone thinks they can be successful via hard work, determination and dedication, they have a decent shot of becoming successful. If someone relies heavily on luck to be successful, they have a snowballs chance in heck of getting there.

End Mini-Rant and apologies if I drifted the thread.

originally posted by: nerbot
a reply to: amazing

In my opinion, TRUE wealth has little to do with money, the same for success.

You ARE rich in financial wealth, but you are obviously nowhere near the point in a life where you consider you have enough to truly enjoy and relish what you actually have right now, hence the reason for a new SUV and motorcycle etc. The fact that you continue to work so hard to make more kinda proves you have become an unwitting slave to money also.

One day you may realise that it's not the money that makes you happy, but the things and the situations it has brought that cannot be bought.

When you are able to realise those things without the money, then you are truly wealthy in a way that outweighs anything financial but in a spiritual way. Priceless.

I've worked hard most of my life at not having to work hard and have now reached a position in life I NEVER imagined I would get to. I have learned how to barter well using my myriad of practical skills, how to appreciate things that others take for granted, how to make good life decisions, and most importantly, how to see the difference between needs and wants which makes even the simplest of things seem like luxury.

Good luck with the grind, you may need it when you wonder what the hell you are doing one day and why your interpretation of "success" has led to something so shallow.

Good point. I'm not sure it's an endless cycle of wanting more materialistic things as it is just freedom. Wealth buys freedom. We all get stuck in our ruts. Owning my own business means that I can't just up and travel like I used to, I've lost a little freedom. But I've gained a means to getting freedom later. As I'm working hard here, I also get to spend time with my family because I can dictate my hours.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Metallicus

That's true but if I drop you in Syria right now how far will that principle take you?

Understood. But then it becomes relative. What is wealth in Syria? For our conversation here it's more about one question.

If one man in one circumstance can achieve wealth then why can't another? If a man in the USA can get a dream job and all the things he desires, then another there can. I suppose that if man in Syria could become wealthy, then another man there can as well.

Anybody can become "MC Hammer rich", or "Mike Tyson rich". That kind of rich anyone can attain as well as piss away in one lifetime.

True wealth lasts generations. That kind of rich is uncommon and to a larger degree requires the intervention if luck. Right place, right time, right people, right idea.

Success embodies all of that, but really can be the same as having a million dollar job, or maybe as humble as just having a job.

Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet. Anyone can achieve some measure of success.

The thing I've learned is that you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The vast majority of people simply do not want to take the steps necessary to be successful. They just want it handed to him.

Most never see the risk taking, personal sacrifice, and other preparation that successful people did in order to get to their level.

Yes, there are people who are born on third base. However, far more people get there the hard way.

a reply to: Edumakated

Most never see the risk taking,

I agree with what you said but risk is only a problem for the middle class. I have been fortunate to have been on all sides of it to understand it.

When you have nothing you have no risk of loosing anything, when you have plenty you can afford to control your risk without fully breaking you.

Its that complacency when you get to the middleclass that makes you second guess taking a risk that can totally break you and your family.

originally posted by: amazing
Wealth buys freedom. We all get stuck in our ruts. Owning my own business means that I can't just up and travel like I used to, I've lost a little freedom. But I've gained a means to getting freedom later. As I'm working hard here, I also get to spend time with my family because I can dictate my hours.

I hear what you're saying but the fact that we cannot predict the future means that the chance to enjoy things "later" may not be as clear cut as a simple presumption. Take it easy on your new bike eh?

I'd also say you have sacraficed a lot of freedom for the responsibility that goes with owning a business, working hard, doing the hours you need to and being in charge of other people.

I'm glad it seems to be working out for you but perhaps one day (soon) you will realise all that effort, time and hard work wasn't needed for the things that really count towards the true wealth you may have had all along.

Happy riding.

a reply to: nerbot

Kind of like having a job.

But it is better sitting around doing nothing waiting to die, isnt it?

a reply to: rupertg

He who dies with the most toys, dies a toy expert.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: amazing

I would say that at least eighty percent of what you just said is bunk, and the other twenty is gold.

The quitting everything that comes with a warning label routine is BULL. Some of the most successful individuals walking the world today have had addictions of one kind or another since before they earned their first dollar/pound.

Also, although hard working is important, as well as knowing what you want and how to get it, if you ignore luck as a factor, then you are no more sensible than the man who does no work, but buys lottery tickets like crazy. There is a balance to be struck, and people who have made it must accept that alongside having worked very hard (and by the way, the most successful people that are alive today, haven't done a days actual work in fifteen years) they have been FANTASTICALLY lucky, because for every one of them, there are hundreds of thousands of people who had exactly the same tools and approach, and failed anyway, repeatedly, no matter what they tried. That's just a fact. It's not a debate point, it's a reality.

I'm just quoting this again for truth. It's true that hard work and perseverance will generally lead to at least modest success, but if you are extremely talented and work absurdly hard... Well, the product of your effort will probably be used to someone else's benefit. Unless you're very lucky, or your extreme talent is using others to your own benefit. (Even then, you might get stuck at middle management.)

Yes you do sound arrogant because you want to boast about how you did it. They all want to tell the story. It's always a long story.

Confidence is silent . Insecurity is loud,

a reply to: amazing

You're saying that a man in the USA can get a dream job and all the things he desires, but you're failing to ask the more important question: Will he? Simple answer: No. Not without an absurd amount of luck, along with the motivation and at least a smidgen of talent.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it will happen. Emma Watson and Leonardo DiCaprio could bust down my door tomorrow and demand a polygamous marriage with me, but the chance of it happening would need to be written in scientific notation to stand a chance of fitting on the page.

a reply to: amazing

I'm still just not convinced that I agree. Certainly there's thing you've said that I agree with but I can't agree with all of it. Perhaps it's the mathematician side of me, but I see everything in terms of probabilities.

If you live the straight edge life (which is something I do, including no caffeine even), that's probably worth +x% to your chance of success.
If you do well in university that's worth x% chance.
If you have a small amount of social skills that's worth x%
If you're actually good at what you do that's worth x%

And I could continue, the problem is though even if you do everything right, some portion of the population will not be financially secure. There's so much I want to say on this topic based on my own personal life, but at the same time I want to maintain some degree of anonymity (not that I'm anyone of note, but just on principal).

So first lets talk about limits and the concept of the self made person. People don't gain skills or financial assistance out of nowhere. Your success is directly proportional to the quality of your educational/financial backing, and just as those things can be given they can also be taken away. Everyone who runs a business, success or failure has something in common... they all work, and most of them work very hard. It's not a trait that sets a person apart. This is something I learned after having several talks with interviewers where I had listed a degree on my resume, and they told me something that stuck. Education exists for one reason only on a resume, it's to get past a HR filter. Everyone considered for a position has gotten through that filter and as such has a similar degree. Because it's something everyone has, it's something that's not worth anything in getting a job.

I see a willingness to work as the same, whether that's the boss or any other employee, if the person is serious about the career they're going to work. Working doesn't set you apart, it's just doing what you're supposed to do.

There is a very real career cap to this mentality, you can hit a mid level position and you will go no further. People who go further than that go above and beyond. It means they do something that sets them apart, that catches the eye of those who have power. It fosters mentorships, access to meetings and networking chances. It opens doors. What that above and beyond is though isn't quantifiable, and if you go above and beyond but aren't noticed by the right person, what you'll instead find is that you become to valuable in your current position and the company will never promote you in fear of losing out. As for the phone habit, I usually don't even carry mine. On purpose I have a phone incapable of playing distracting apps. My phone is for communication only. If I need to sit and wait somewhere I either pull out a notebook of ideas and brainstorm, or I sit and reflect on the day and how I could have done things better.

Now, for the networking part. I'm not sure I want to agree or not because often times relationships are fostered over sharing a vice. People go out to drink together, I can't count how many times that one has screwed me in life because of my refusal to drink. Or developing a reputation as someone who isn't going to party with them, when you decline to do some drugs. These things happen all the time. At other times, people will see your principals and admire them, at one point I caught a break in my life because someone saw I was different from the rest of the people in my town and gave me a chance (which ended up being life changing in a way). It's nothing more than the luck of displaying the right attitude to the right people.

As far as skills go and working harder than people, I'll just compare myself to my current classmates as we do a lot of team projects. I have something of a reputation as being able to do a bit of anything. Motion capture, 3d modeling, animation, programming, mathematics, level design, and so on... the benefits of age (being closer to my professors in age rather than my fellow students) has given me time to work on it all. They however don't have the health issues I have, and are much better programmers. I can program for 12 hours a day 7 days a week getting in just under 100 hours worth of work and half finish an assignment. They can put in 130 hours and finish the assignment. That is a gap I will never be able to overcome and it's not about working harder or working faster, because I do both. With time, they can do what I can do, but I can never do what they can do, which means that I am automatically at the bottom of my class. That is a ceiling, and it will forever limit me.

Luck matters a lot. This comes from someone with 335 semester credits learning skills (that's way too long in college if you're not aware). Everyone you come across in your field will have the work ethic and the skills. Most will be willing to learn new skills. Simply having these abilities is not what gets a person ahead in life. Getting ahead comes from the social side of things, which involves networking, and having the right people being interested in helping you out at the right moment. Sometimes that's a banker writing your loan, and sometimes it's a boss giving you a promotion. Neither of those people had to do that for you, it could just as easily have gone to someone else in a similar situation. But in the end, one person wins out because they were picked, and several others don't.

So to close with a mathematical point of view again. There's a geometric progression from the top down. At each level, more people are trying to move up than there is space to contain them. If every single person had the skills and attitude of the most talented person in that hierarchical pyramid, some will rank higher than others for no other reason than luck. That is the situation we have today, people are limited by artificial ceilings such as job availability, whether they go past it or not, ultimately isn't up to them, it's to people who are already above them.

You can do everything "right" but that's still just hedging the odds in your favor a bit, it is not a guarantee. Similarly, you can still do everything wrong and get lucky.

a reply to: Aazadan

I agree with essentially all of your post. The simple fact is that life is a mass of dice rolls where you get to nudge the results slightly. There are some doors you will not be able to pass through, and some you will be forced to take. Occasionally you will have a choice.

originally posted by: eluryh22
Although it's not the end of the world, I have to admit that it "grinds my gears" anytime anyone introduces a thread that details possible pathways to success (which is admittedly a relative term).... it is almost always and almost immediately met with accusations of "luck."

Because it is. People can put themselves in a position to capitalize on that luck if it comes along, but that's all

Of course we are all biased (to an extent) based on our own experiences and history. The best way I can think of to describe my frustration is with my own experience.

Me too. I am disabled, it is illegal to discriminate against me for that but it happens all the time in life because that's the way people are. Part of my treatment means I sleep 14 hours a day due to medication. That leaves me 10 hours a day to try and be as productive as a person who has 18 hours, which means my break even point to match a low level employee is skipping breaks/lunches and doing everything twice as fast as the experienced guys. Some people get good luck, others get bad luck. If you would like, I can describe my experiences, though I don't have a career yet, and as much as I would like one... probably never will.

Unlike most poor people though, I've seen a lot of highly successful people up close... most of my family is very successful. I know their habits rather than having gotten into the popular habits of those who are poor. I know what does and doesn't work, but I've also seen up close that it doesn't work for everyone. Work plays a part in being a success but it is not the only part. Everyone works, but not everyone will have a successful career. Such a thing is impossible because not every person can be on the board of a company or high level management. Most people must be low and mid level employees in order to get things done.

I'm always shocked (and in rare occasions almost offended) to hear people tell me, "Wow. You sure got lucky that you got that job."

Let me tell you a story about a friend of mine, a former teacher even. He recently got himself a new job using some cutting edge technology. The only problem is, he doesn't know how to use it. He pitched the idea to the company, they liked it, and brought him on to do things for them with the tech. A few weeks ago, I was at his house showing him the basics of it because he was freaking out that he couldn't do it. Once he learned he would have to program to use it, he gave up and offered me a percent of his salary to secretly do the work for him.

That type of situation is luck. Luck to be hired by a corporation with more money than sense. Luck to keep a job you're unqualified for. Luck on my end to get summer work after my internship was canceled (which I turned down, because it would be dishonest).

I'm a firm believer in the self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone thinks they can be successful via hard work, determination and dedication, they have a decent shot of becoming successful. If someone relies heavily on luck to be successful, they have a snowballs chance in heck of getting there.

There's a distinction between luck and fate. Fate says you can sit around on your ass all day and eventually be given a great job. That's not what I believe. However, there is 1 good job out there for every 100 motivated and qualified candidates. Being the 1 that gets picked truly does come down to luck.