War with the Benjaminites, maidens of Jabesh-gilead and the daughters of Shiloh.

originally posted by: LenatasataneL

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: LenatasataneL

He actually orders the Israelites to rape in one book.

Where?
This will be good considering God outlawed rape Deuteronomy 22:23-29 and rape is theft

LenatasataneL is misquoting a Prophecy that the Medes would war against the Chaldean Babylonians and in doing so would rape the Chaldean women (in Isaiah 13:15-26).

There was no instruction for the Israelis to commit rape, Nor was it an instruction to the Medes (who had no way to know of the prophecy until after it had come to pass) to commit rape. It was purely an accurate prophecy.

LenatasataneL when they were Szarah, was told this but they obviously choose to to ignore fact where it messes with their fantasy.

I am not misquoting anything God "stirred up the Medes" knowing that this rape was going to occur.

As far as I am concerned that is as good as ordering it. It is as good. He stirred them up and bragged to Isaiah about the rapes.

I should have specified that "them" was Medes, but that is not a misquote. I just slipped up when I said the Israelites when I meant to say the Persians.

He was bragging? Really? None of it occurred until a 150 years later. It was accurate reporting before the event i.e: prophecy.

Also, it wasn't the end of the Hebrew captivity, the new guys moved in and took over the Babylonian franchise.

You'd probably blame Nostradamus for the rise of Hitler.

a reply to: chr0naut

Look, I made a thread to discuss a story I read.

I only mentioned it is not the worst thing"God" orders.

YES he "stirred up the Medes" and YES, bragged about the coming rapes to Isaiah YES ABSOLUTELY.

Ridiculous statements about Hitler and Nostradamus aside, you are a freaking headache and buzzkill, and I don't let people pull me into pointless arguments.

So knock yourself out thinking I will but I am not biting.

If the story told here is what qualifies for scripture or the word of God and is viewed as having really occurred you either are comfortable with an evil God who orders massacres that end with bigger crimes than the initial incident that occurred.

Or you find the meaning of the story as a mythological tale with a parable type second meaning. This seems more logical to me.

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
If the story told here is what qualifies for scripture or the word of God and is viewed as having really occurred you either are comfortable with an evil God who orders massacres that end with bigger crimes than the initial incident that occurred.

Or you find the meaning of the story as a mythological tale with a parable type second meaning. This seems more logical to me.

Hey gnosisfaith
I think what the point is, is that people are evil, will do evil things
You just want to blame God
It's not God it's people

Why do you keep coming back when you are clearly an unwanted person here.
Because you don't get the point, you never understand simple logic, simple to those who understand simple

Logical to you, logic makes it clear that your attitude is not acceptable, yet again and again, illogical
Get it

I'm also interested in the fact the Levites concubine was cut into 12 pieces and dispersed among the lands.

This calls to mind the story of Osiris who was killed by Set and dismembered into 13 pieces. The thirteenth piece was Osiris penis.

Isis finds 12 pieces and fashions the 13th.

I think Osiris is resurrected as Horus but don't quote me, I don't know too much about the religion of ancient Egypt.

I do know that the obelisk is a symbol for Osiris phallus. The Catholic Church is in possession of an original Egyptian obelisk.

So I will now do some research on this and get back to you.

I am no Bible basher btw, I just like finding the greater meaning of the seemingly mundane stories.

This brings the scripture to life.

It seems to me that scholarly consensus is that this story is a post exilic work or addition to the book of Judges designed to justify the need for a King. The repeated references to no King in those days and the wickedness that occurs when there is no King seem to verify this angle as a valid interpretation.

But the fact that the Kings were the most evil people usually and caused more evil than good is reason to wonder if Kings is post-exilic and designed as a what not to do guide for the new Kings. Even David was a lowlife.

So new interpretations are being sought, the Rabbis won't even try and explain it showing even they are shocked that this is in scripture.

I propose that it is propaganda against the Benjaminites for one. They were the black sheep of Israel.

And the hidden meaning is that the god of Israel allows his chosen people to commit atrocities.

And how prophetic it turned out to be as Israel is still at it today. But they control our media so we don't hear about it. But we are bombarded with anti Muslim propaganda.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

Hey
I think what the point is, is that people are evil, will do evil things
You just want to blame God
It's not God it's people

Nobody has ever needed the Bible to figure out people are evil. So simple an interpretation is not the right one. The story has more meaning than that. See my latest messages.

I don't want to blame God, I want to point out that Yahweh is unjust. Yahweh is not God. But Yahweh is responsible for more atrocities than anyone in the Bible and easily the most evil character.

Logical to you, logic makes it clear that your attitude is not acceptable, yet again and again, illogical
Get it

Not acceptable to who? Get what?

I get that you can are not at all a logical thinker.

Do you not believe in a myth as literal history?

That isn't logical by definition. You can't prove what you believe but believe despite logic. Men don't resurrect from death after 3 days or in Lazarus case we when they have started to decay.

Illogical to the maximum.

edit on 7-6-2016 by LenatasataneL because: (no reason given)

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originally posted by: LenatasataneL
a reply to: chr0naut

Look, I made a thread to discuss a story I read.

I only mentioned it is not the worst thing"God" orders.

YES he "stirred up the Medes" and YES, bragged about the coming rapes to Isaiah YES ABSOLUTELY.

Ridiculous statements about Hitler and Nostradamus aside, you are a freaking headache and buzzkill, and I don't let people pull me into pointless arguments.

So knock yourself out thinking I will but I am not biting.

So, God "bragged" about it.

Do you think He was trying to impress Isaiah (who, by the way would be long dead well before any of it happened)?

God could have "bragged" about anything. He was the Creator of everything that exists. Surely God would have had a lot better stuff to "brag" about than that?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
If the story told here is what qualifies for scripture or the word of God and is viewed as having really occurred you either are comfortable with an evil God who orders massacres that end with bigger crimes than the initial incident that occurred.

Or you find the meaning of the story as a mythological tale with a parable type second meaning. This seems more logical to me.

Hey
I think what the point is, is that people are evil, will do evil things
You just want to blame God
It's not God it's people

Nobody needs the Bible to learn people are evil.

I don't want to blame God, and Yahweh isn't God. I am just looking for the deeper meaning.

Your interpretation is too simple to be the real meaning.

Logical to you, logic makes it clear that your attitude is not acceptable, yet again and again, illogical
Get it

Acceptable to who? What exactly what is illogical about what I said and why is it illogical.?

You believe that a mythology is reality.

THAT is illogical.

Pardon me for looking for deeper meaning than the simple literal story itself. But this is how scripture works.

a reply to: chr0naut

Maybe you didn't read the message where I told you I won't be roped in to pointless arguments and yours is pointless and off topic. And an ended conversation.

I don't argue. Discuss the topic or something relevant and I will respond if not have a good life.

Another aspect of this is that the Levite may very well have sacrificed his concubine instead of the man's virgin daughter as a stealth act of revenge.

She previously cuckolded him either by adultery or in a religious aspect symbolizing she apostasied, probably as a sacred prostitute, but the story isn't clear.

It is an interesting aspect to ponder and makes the the story more interesting as he never speaks aloud that it was a crime of opportunity and he was punishing her. But close examination reveals it a probability that at least it was secretly an act of revenge for her being unfaithful.

It even explains why he substituted his own concubine when he didn't have to. And by reporting it without revealing his motive he triggers travesty after travesty with a hundred thousand or so dying and over a thousand women terrorized, kidnapped and forced into marriage.

Now that is a story you can learn from.

a reply to: chr0naut

So are you interested in a polite conversation about the meaning of this story or did you only want confrontation?

Because I talk about the story and you vanish as if you were looking for someone to criticize and start an argument.

Your only interest was getting in an argument about differences of methodology when it comes to scripture.

Learn to live with the fact that not everyone thinks and the Bible is real recorded history. The idea is even laughable considering that the old priests and modern Rabbis teach that the stories are deliberately written to have a public meaning and a private or hidden meaning that is the real meaning only understood by the extremely learned and only taught to the proven worthy.

The Zohar is dedicated to unlocking the meaning of scripture and giving the reader a glimpse of the Divine.

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
a reply to: chr0naut

So are you interested in a polite conversation about the meaning of this story or did you only want confrontation?

did you only want confrontation?
Every post, every thread, everyone is a demand that non gnostic christians should bow down to your way of thinking, every single comment you make is aggressive and demanding, every single post.

Get over yourself, you do more harm than good, you destroy your own credibility and your own argument.
How many times have you been banned around here? Thats not a good look
There can be no polite conversations with a person that you dont respect, hereabouts you dont give any or deserve any

I believe that Jehovah, Jesus and the Spirit are all God.

Horrible story, recounting of the truth of the bible.
No fairy floss, no sweet roses and unicorns with rainbow manes in the text

Its a hard and nasty retelling of the evil of Israel and mens selfish nature

heavydluxe.blogspot.com.au...

The approval of Yahweh, really, where

Its an important story explaining mans evil and Gods disgust, hence why its in the Old Testament, hence what happens to humanity when they have no rule

Let it be a warning

Wow.

Really? This is how you view the world and every day that you live? What a dismal circumstance.

Who put this notion into your head?
Because relax. Everything will be okay.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

Horrible story, recounting of the truth of the bible.
No fairy floss, no sweet roses and unicorns with rainbow manes in the text

Its a hard and nasty retelling of the evil of Israel and mens selfish nature

heavydluxe.blogspot.com.au...

The approval of Yahweh, really, where

Its an important story explaining mans evil and Gods disgust, hence why its in the Old Testament, hence what happens to humanity when they have no rule

Let it be a warning

Wow.

Really? This is how you view the world and every day that you live? What a dismal circumstance.

Who put this notion into your head?
Because relax. Everything will be okay.

Are you serious, women, girls are being abused all over the world, open a paper

The middle east is at war, humanity is being destroyed

www.childhelp.org...

victimsofcrime.org...

www.nytimes.com...

www.who.int...

www.ibtimes.co.uk...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.ungift.org...

I dont think you have noticed reality


ah whatever, relax. Everything will be okay for you

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
a reply to: chr0naut

So are you interested in a polite conversation about the meaning of this story or did you only want confrontation?

Because I talk about the story and you vanish as if you were looking for someone to criticize and start an argument.

Your only interest was getting in an argument about differences of methodology when it comes to scripture.

Learn to live with the fact that not everyone thinks and the Bible is real recorded history. The idea is even laughable considering that the old priests and modern Rabbis teach that the stories are deliberately written to have a public meaning and a private or hidden meaning that is the real meaning only understood by the extremely learned and only taught to the proven worthy.

The Zohar is dedicated to unlocking the meaning of scripture and giving the reader a glimpse of the Divine.

I didn't run away, I have a life. I was at work.

I do understand that people don't believe that the Bible is true and I accept that.

I just think that someone who takes meaning from the Bible and at the same time derides it seems somewhat contradictory.

There are also far more Rebbe and Priests that urge us to take the Bible literally that there are that who suggest we should ignore its primary messages.

In regard to the meaning of this particular account (or story, I can't figure out if you think it is fiction or a history). The Benjamites and the Levite were all complicit in a true evil. They all acted as though what they were doing was just 'normal'. God wasn't behind any of it.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
a reply to: chr0naut

So are you interested in a polite conversation about the meaning of this story or did you only want confrontation?

Because I talk about the story and you vanish as if you were looking for someone to criticize and start an argument.

Your only interest was getting in an argument about differences of methodology when it comes to scripture.

Learn to live with the fact that not everyone thinks and the Bible is real recorded history. The idea is even laughable considering that the old priests and modern Rabbis teach that the stories are deliberately written to have a public meaning and a private or hidden meaning that is the real meaning only understood by the extremely learned and only taught to the proven worthy.

The Zohar is dedicated to unlocking the meaning of scripture and giving the reader a glimpse of the Divine.

I didn't run away, I have a life. I was at work.

I do understand that people don't believe that the Bible is true and I accept that.

I just think that someone who takes meaning from the Bible and at the same time derides it seems somewhat contradictory.

Who does that? I repeat I am no Bible basher I just search for a deeper meaning. Not one of my imagination but one that was designed to be a second meaning and the real meaning.

There are also far more Rebbe and Priests that urge us to take the Bible literally that there are that who suggest we should ignore its primary messages.

Who cares what priests, pastors or anyone in the Christian profession thinks? They are not allowed to go outside of the doctrine of their church or will be fired. Thus, can't be trusted. And priests? Is that a joke? I mentioned no priests or Christians because they don't know about Hebrew perspective or Rabbinical teachings unless they learn it and it serves them little use and is time consuming.

I assume by "us" you mean the public. This could be true. But when they teach in private you would be ridiculed for it. The Rabbis and important Jews are not so willing to share their true beliefs. In essence this is only to keep you from discovering that which they don't want you to. And you trust and believe like this is not obvious to any person familiar with Jewish beliefs. Try buying an uncensored Talmud, if you can find one in English it will be $2,000. Even a censored one. Why are they even censoring religious texts is a great question.

In regard to the meaning of this particular account (or story, I can't figure out if you think it is fiction or a history). The Benjamites and the Levite were all complicit in a true evil. They all acted as though what they were doing was just 'normal'. God wasn't behind any of it.

God WAS behind it. He actually was consulted on who should lead in battle. His involvement here means he oversaw the whole thing. He didn't see it as evil but as justice for disrespecting a Levite. All subsequent incidents, the oath to not marry into Benjamin, and none of the familiar punishment for sin, make it clear that God was behind it in MANY ways. That is just an incorrect statement as at the very least he ordered the war.

I don't think it is history or fiction. It is scripture. That means it it is both(myth), with the purpose of conveying profound messages and in this case propaganda.

The Benjaminites are villainized, as this story is clearly not historical this is propaganda.

More importantly Judges was probably used to convince the people that they needed a King. The wickedness and mentions of no King in those days would have been used to convince the people that a King was necessary.

And the hidden angle is that Levites are beyond reproach, the Levite who sacrificed his concubine, possibly a stealth act of revenge, or even God punishing the concubine himself who committed a form of adultery which may not have been sexual and could mean she worshipped other God's, is not seen as a coward like he should be. He is not ashamed as evidenced by his reporting of the incident and goes further and starts a war over it.

Which, was totally supported by Yahweh who instructs them even, so the Levite is not even rebuked for his act of cowardice and is backed by God despite.

This is how the scripture is taught. Layers of meaning upon layers. It's why people read it more than once. You pick up on things as you learn. Read the Bible, research the history of the Bible. Learn the history of, the real history of the Jews and the Bible.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
a reply to: chr0naut

So are you interested in a polite conversation about the meaning of this story or did you only want confrontation?

did you only want confrontation?

No, that is why I requested a polite conversation.

Every post, every thread, everyone is a demand that non gnostic christians should bow down to your way of thinking, every single comment you make is aggressive and demanding, every single post.

Been a member for 3 days, made one thread, and could you show how I demand that people should (which is not actually a demand if 'should' is being used), bow down, that I am a Gnostic or a Christian or aggressive and demanding. Just one quote will do.

Get over yourself, you do more harm than good, you destroy your own credibility and your own argument.
How many times have you been banned around here? Thats not a good look
There can be no polite conversations with a person that you dont respect, hereabouts you dont give any or deserve any

I believe that Jehovah, Jesus and the Spirit are all God.

How interesting of you to say. Who have I harmed and how? I also have no idea why anyone would get banned, but I have never been a member so you are being foolish and it's humorous to me.

But I don't think any of your comment qualifies as polite. I have an inkling that you are subconsciously talking about yourself because you seem like your description of "me" and I don't come close.

If anyone needs to get over them self take a look in the mirror.

I don't remember doing anything that anyone should get angry over, and your comment looks angry.

Why are you so mad?

Pray it away if you're so close to Jehovah.

originally posted by: LenatasataneL

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: LenatasataneL
a reply to: chr0naut

So are you interested in a polite conversation about the meaning of this story or did you only want confrontation?

Because I talk about the story and you vanish as if you were looking for someone to criticize and start an argument.

Your only interest was getting in an argument about differences of methodology when it comes to scripture.

Learn to live with the fact that not everyone thinks and the Bible is real recorded history. The idea is even laughable considering that the old priests and modern Rabbis teach that the stories are deliberately written to have a public meaning and a private or hidden meaning that is the real meaning only understood by the extremely learned and only taught to the proven worthy.

The Zohar is dedicated to unlocking the meaning of scripture and giving the reader a glimpse of the Divine.

I didn't run away, I have a life. I was at work.

I do understand that people don't believe that the Bible is true and I accept that.

I just think that someone who takes meaning from the Bible and at the same time derides it seems somewhat contradictory.

Who does that? I repeat I am no Bible basher I just search for a deeper meaning. Not one of my imagination but one that was designed to be a second meaning and the real meaning.

There are also far more Rebbe and Priests that urge us to take the Bible literally that there are that who suggest we should ignore its primary messages.

I assume by "us" you mean the public. This could be true. But when they teach in private you would be ridiculed for it. The Rabbis and important Jews are not so willing to share their true beliefs. In essence this is only to keep you from discovering that which they don't want you to. And you trust and believe like this is not obvious to any person familiar with Jewish beliefs. Try buying an uncensored Talmud, if you can find one in English it will be $2,000. Even a censored one. Why are they even censoring religious texts is a great question.

In regard to the meaning of this particular account (or story, I can't figure out if you think it is fiction or a history). The Benjamites and the Levite were all complicit in a true evil. They all acted as though what they were doing was just 'normal'. God wasn't behind any of it.

I don't think it is history or fiction. It is scripture. That means it it is both(myth), with the purpose of conveying profound messages and in this case propaganda.

The Benjaminites are villainized, as this story is clearly not historical this is propaganda.

More importantly Judges was probably used to convince the people that they needed a King. The wickedness and mentions of no King in those days would have been used to convince the people that a King was necessary.

And the hidden angle is that Levites are beyond reproach, the Levite who sacrificed his concubine, possibly a stealth act of revenge, or even God punishing the concubine himself who committed a form of adultery which may not have been sexual and could mean she worshipped other God's, is not seen as a coward like he should be. He is not ashamed as evidenced by his reporting of the incident and goes further and starts a war over it.

Which, was totally supported by Yahweh who instructs them even, so the Levite is not even rebuked for his act of cowardice and is backed by God despite.

This is how the scripture is taught. Layers of meaning upon layers. It's why people read it more than once. You pick up on things as you learn. Read the Bible, research the history of the Bible. Learn the history of, the real history of the Jews and the Bible.

BTW, you did mention priests in the post that I was responding to ("old priests").

As a propagandist work, the Torah & Prophets just after when the book of Judges was written, leaves a bit lacking. The problem was that no-one was actually reading God's word. They were doing their own stuff. Even the Levite, who should have had priestly duty, was called by others to perform mumbo-jumbo false religious ceremonies in return for money. I doubt that He was reading God's word which would clearly identify that what he was doing was unlawful.

With a busted priesthood, religious practice being forgotten, and God's word no longer being read, the Book of Judges could not have been effective as propaganda (if that is what it was written for), because it was like "who cares" at the time.

While Judges could have been used as a lever for public opinion towards getting a King, there had been a period, before the Judges, where the conquest of Canaan went particularly well for the Hebrews, the law and religious service was strongly established and before all the rot set in. At that time, they had neither jails nor police force and still their society held together, was law abiding and prospered.

Similarly, after the mess that Monarchist Israel became, there was the captivity because ultimately having Kings didn't help them do what was actually necessary to avoid the dissolution of public morals.

That there was tribal civil war in Israel, where one side "villainized" the other, is one of the points of the book of Judges. Neither side had the moral high ground, neither side had the ear of God. The national identity that was Israel was falling apart from apathy and Godlessness.

"EVERYONE did what was right in their own eyes".

a reply to: Raggedyman

Oh trust me, I've noticed.

I notice it every day, and sometimes I just have to take a step back.
I fight for justice all the time - I am a pacifist, remember? I am a person who wants everyone to lay down their arms (on all sides) and be nice to each other.

That is my dream for the world. Practical solutions are what I seek - cooperation, and collective well-being. None of that requires religion. Religion just mucks it up...in my opinion.