WA Schools to Teach Gender Identity Curriculum to Kindergarteners

a reply to: kaylaluv

My point was that with such a seemingly small part of the population being transgender, (not sure how many are children) even more than 3 or 4 coming into one dentist office in an area with multiple offices, seems like a large number.

My thoughts are that some parents may be jumping the gun with allowing their children to identify as transgender. I don't have any doubts with the legitimacy of certain individuals identifying as a different gender. I just think that when it comes to children, we should be more careful.

Getting back on topic, we should also be more careful with children and introducing them to a concept that even confuses most adults.

originally posted by: AntisocialAnxiety
a reply to: kaylaluv

My point was that with such a seemingly small part of the population being transgender, (not sure how many are children) even more than 3 or 4 coming into one dentist office in an area with multiple offices, seems like a large number.

My thoughts are that some parents may be jumping the gun with allowing their children to identify as transgender. I don't have any doubts with the legitimacy of certain individuals identifying as a different gender. I just think that when it comes to children, we should be more careful.

Getting back on topic, we should also be more careful with children and introducing them to a concept that even confuses most adults.

When would you want to introduce them to the idea?

I hear what you're saying, certainly, there's all kinds of things I think kids should not be exposed to or inculcated into until they are old enough to decide for themselves. But when is that? Post-puberty?

That can make the process of transitioning a lot more complicated and unpleasant.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Some may argue post-puberty, some would say that's to late. Puberty is already confusing enough as it is, so some would say adding to that confusion would cause a negative effect. Would it? I don't know, kids are individuals and individuals are different.

I just believe early grade school is to young. Puberty ages are complicated because kids are trying figure themselves out, early grade school age children are trying to figure out much more, imo.

originally posted by: AntisocialAnxiety
a reply to: Gryphon66

Some may argue post-puberty, some would say that's to late. Puberty is already confusing enough as it is, so some would say adding to that confusion would cause a negative effect. Would it? I don't know, kids are individuals and individuals are different.

I just believe early grade school is to young. Puberty ages are complicated because kids are trying figure themselves out, early grade school age children are trying to figure out much more, imo.

Did you review the actual Washington standards, or the biased articles about it?

Here's a link to the actual published standards, if you wish to review.

I think you'll find that the subject is much less dramatic than has been presented here.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: Annee

I don't want the 50's ma'am, I want the medieval or ancient World.. I want to swing swords in ancient China, be an adventurer around the Mediterranean 3000 years ago.

"Timeline" one of my favorite books/movies.

I grew up in an all boy neighborhood, with 2 brothers. It wasn't until I was 12 a girl moved into the neighborhood.

Spent most of my time on roof tops and in trees, crossing between houses walking fences.

I want the world to be real. I want people to be who they were born to be (no victims, of course).

a reply to: Gryphon66

The only thing that concerns me is what does "expressing gender" even mean to children in kindergarten? Some girls play with trucks and some boys play with dolls? I'm no professional, but that doesn't constitute a transgender issue imo.

Are they teaching that it's not ok to make fun of boys that play with dolls and girls that play with trucks? I'm ok with that, but what does that have to really do with gender identity? My sister often played with my trucks and was very tomboyish. She grew up to be a female identifying as a heterosexual female. Maybe I'm missing the point entirely, but not making fun of what toys someone plays with is just general common courtesy.

Does it go deeper, to tackle why a classmate dresses a certain way or wears their hair a certain way? If that classmate identifies as transgender, then I'd imagine their classmates will identify them by how they appear, and it really wouldn't be a question anyway. They can use the bathroom of the gender they identify with and to me it seems that'd be the only circumstance that would even bring up the subject.

Again, maybe I'm babbling and missing the point entirely.

originally posted by: AntisocialAnxiety
a reply to: Gryphon66

The only thing that concerns me is what does "expressing gender" even mean to children in kindergarten? Some girls play with trucks and some boys play with dolls? I'm no professional, but that doesn't constitute a transgender issue imo.

Nor in mine either. But you hit on one of the important questions that many in the trans*, genderqueer, non-binary, fluid communities often ask themselves: what is gender? Is it mere cultural performance? Adhering to certain roles?

I don't know the answer, obviously.

originally posted by: AntisocialAnxiety

Are they teaching that it's not ok to make fun of boys that play with dolls and girls that play with trucks? I'm ok with that, but what does that have to really do with gender identity? My sister often played with my trucks and was very tomboyish. She grew up to be a female identifying as a heterosexual female. Maybe I'm missing the point entirely, but not making fun of what toys someone plays with is just general common courtesy.

Common courtesy would go a long way toward eradicating almost all of these issues in my opinion. I agree totally.

originally posted by: AntisocialAnxiety

Does it go deeper, to tackle why a classmate dresses a certain way or wears their hair a certain way? If that classmate identifies as transgender, then I'd imagine their classmates will identify them by how they appear, and it really wouldn't be a question anyway. They can use the bathroom of the gender they identify with and to me it seems that'd be the only circumstance that would even bring up the subject.

Again, maybe I'm babbling and missing the point entirely.

Not at all, in fact, you're light-years ahead of most posters on these topics. I myself am a 50 year old cisgendered gay man. (It's not going to be long until I can't remember all the proper descriptions for myself, LOL). I would be the first to admit that learning about the spectrum of gender identities and associated issues has been a challenge for me. However, I have fought all my life for equal rights for all, and I'm not going to stop now, simply because I personally don't understand all aspects of the trans* gender identities.

So, in short, if you're babbling, so am I. LOL

a reply to: Gryphon66

I just know I tend to babble sometimes.

Three years ago I wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'd have said that transgendered individuals are just confused and should just get inline with societies norm. Moving to a more progressive state and into a very progressive community has changed my mind on MANY societal issues. Being that I now live in Washington State, (where I learned a lot more tolerance) they may just be on to something after all with this whole thing.

I'll definitely keep an open eye, and open mind, on the issue moving forward. My daughter is two years away from kindergarten.

originally posted by: AntisocialAnxiety
a reply to: Gryphon66

I just know I tend to babble sometimes.

Three years ago I wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'd have said that transgendered individuals are just confused and should just get inline with societies norm. Moving to a more progressive state and into a very progressive community has changed my mind on MANY societal issues. Being that I now live in Washington State, (where I learned a lot more tolerance) they may just be on to something after all with this whole thing.

I'll definitely keep an open eye, and open mind, on the issue moving forward. My daughter is two years away from kindergarten.

I don't blame you at all. There's ideology and society ... and then there's our families. We have to do what's best, even if we happen to be wrong sometimes. Best of luck, and thanks for the refreshing conversation.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

He will never budge. Even when it comes directly from the horse's mouth he will claim "it is only paranoia from the right"...

Always is, till exactly what we stated is proven, then it's somehow "not relevant", or we just "don't understand", or whatever!

a reply to: Annee

Sounds like a lot of fun, but I wonder if there's a place for that kind of fun in a World where everybody's pathologically afraid of pain and suffering. With the way things are going I don't even think parents in the future will let their kids play without some kind of supervision. We're heading for a society of all-pervasive surveillance. A World without fun.

There are already heavens that are perfect. Physical life is a struggle and adversity is a part of it. There's great growth to be found in suffering. A lot of spiritual material will even say that learning by adversity in the physical realm is the greatest, as a catalyst for spiritual growth. I don't know about that specifically, but the general idea is true.

You don't want suffering? You don't want victims? I think you know how endless creation is don't you? Do you know how many hellish realities there are? How many eventualities play out? If we want to be concerned about suffering, why limit ourselves to this World, it is so small. My point is, there will always be endless suffering. You can spend a lifetime worrying about it and feeling bad about it, but it will never ever end. You will never run out of situations to be upset about.

Maybe this sounds like defeatism. Some kind of spiritual nihilism maybe.. I don't know, maybe it is. You can still work towards a better future but I think some people take it too far. They run out of problems to complain about so they invent new ones. Karma is a factor too, people aren't really victims in a spiritual sense. Everyone is responsible for where they're at, as harsh as it may sound.

Samsara is suffering, if you're not a Buddha.. get used to it, or become one.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Your claim that teaching kids that gender and gender identities exist is equivalent to teaching them "that basic biology is somehow irrelevant, and encouraging confusion and mental disorders" is a blatant lie.

No, it's a basic scientific fact. Fact - people come as male or female, with a fee very rare genetic conditions as exceptions, most of which are still clearly one or the other. Telling small children that their biology doesn't matter is flat out stupid.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
And that's because, your superstitious beliefs about gender and gender identities are disputed by modern medicine and ever-growing legal precedent.

No, medicine doesn't disagree. Politics disagrees, and politics making health and mental health determinations is a bad idea.

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Support of Transgenderism and Sex-Change Surgery Is ‘Collaborating With Madness’

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Your way of thinking is becoming a relic, and the people of Washington have the right to determine their educational standards.

Or are you against States' Rights now?

Brainwashing and recruiting children in regard to such issues has nothing to do with education. Already addressed your strawman.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

But apparently biology and science are irrelevant! The idea of gender was perpetuated by the white male cis straight patriarchy! Science means nothing so we shouldn't teach it in schools anymore.... let's throw out math, art, spelling and anything else that is logical and conclusively a fact. Let's all hold hands and sit in a circle of peace where everyone has a specific gender even though gender doesn't matter.

Okay I even made myself a little nauseated with that... I apologize.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: Annee

Sounds like a lot of fun, but I wonder if there's a place for that kind of fun in a World where everybody's pathologically afraid of pain and suffering. With the way things are going I don't even think parents in the future will let their kids play without some kind of supervision. We're heading for a society of all-pervasive surveillance. A World without fun..

That's extremist.

Why should kids play without supervision? Kids are kids, they do stupid stuff. I'm not going to let my kid run wild to prove a point.

We didn't have neighborhood parks, or Rec Centers, or AdventurePlex, or Sky Zone, or even MCD Play Place. All we had was the neighborhood and the beach. We do have the beach.

Society evolves. I need to look forward to the society he will live in. Not backwards to what it was. I don't do "Once Was".

I think America's future will be more divided by intellectuals and "workers". Pretty much what most other countries have - - no middle class. You're either a "have" or a "have not".

I'm for openness. I'm for letting minds be open to the diversities that are part of their life.

We should be beyond "closet doors".

Love the "One or the Other" approach.

Can't mix the 3 R's and Closet Doors.

a reply to: AntisocialAnxiety

If you don't understand, the kids wont either.

a reply to: Annee

How is that extremist? It has been the norm for so long and there never were any problems with it. Sure, you don't have to let your kid do whatever they want, but there's limits to being an insufferable control freak.

No, not letting kids play without supervision is extremist.

Let them scrape their goddamned knees. You're a totalitarian, I would love it if you tried to raise me that way. I'd beat your ass for trying to control me like that.. and it would be ok too, because I'd only be a kid. And if I couldn't beat you, I would probably burn your house up. And you would totally deserve it.

I feel sorry for those three generations of kids you've raised. They must be mentally scarred, ehh, no.. I mean, they must be like Rod and Todd in the Simpsons.



I'm gonna have myself a cigarette, because I wasn't raised by you and I'm cool like that.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: Annee

How is that extremist? It has been the norm for so long and there never were any problems with it. Sure, you don't have to let your kid do whatever they want, but there's limits to being an insufferable control freak.

Yes, yes, my 8 year old falls down and all the other mothers rush to him and try to baby him. It is sooooo annoying. One time he was really high on the swings, jumped off and did a face plant. I said, "Bet you don't do that again", as he's spitting out sand.

No, not letting kids play without supervision is extremist.

Depends on the age and location and kid. Mine is a High Functioning Autistic. He doesn't know limits.

I feel sorry for those three generations of kids you've raised. They must be mentally scarred, ehh, no.. I mean, they must be like Rod and Todd in the Simpsons.

How little you know about me. I was raised as a free thinker with almost no discipline. My older one was ADD, back when they were just becoming aware of it. I put her on a swim team, they had practice every night and meets all weekend. The younger one started when she was 4, because she fell off the bleachers. She swam Jr Olympics before she was 5.

"Church Goer and Wild Child" As opposite as opposite can be.

a reply to: Annee

It's kind of cute when you say: "It is soooooo annoying".. makes me think of a teenage girl. Are you single?
Freaking mothers right.. with their babying and not letting me talk on the phone all night..

Kind of seems like you're flip flopping now? I don't know why you don't care about kids hurting themselves all off a sudden. But good, kids should eat sand. That'll teach them a lesson.

Your kid? Why do you have a 8 year old kid? You were probably around during the renaissance, aren't you too old for that kind of thing? Either way, raising an autistic kid is a special case.

Aahhh, a fellow wild child.. I know all about being a wild child, somewhere in time I was even raised by monkeys.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod

Kind of seems like you're flip flopping now? I don't know why you don't care about kids hurting themselves all off a sudden. But good, kids should eat sand. That'll teach them a lesson.

We do not seem to be connecting at all.

So, gonna end this little side discussion.