why are we all so afraid of offending islam

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: enlightenedservant

There's a lot of bad people out there. Murderers of every colour and creed.

But Muslim murderers differ in this one particular.

They commit their crimes in the name of their religion.

The term 'Islamist extremists' is not an idle use of language.

So it doesn't count if Christian leaders elected by a Christian majority population send a Christian majority army to kill non Christians? Even when those leaders call the wars a "Crusade" (1:45 mark of the below video) and place Biblical passages on their guns (here)?
Also, you might want to check your history. The wars I mentioned in my post were done in the name of religion and ideology. Both periods of Western/Christian Colonialism and Western/Christian Imperialism were used to spread Christianity throughout the world, particularly in "Latin America". Or do you not know why Central America and South America are literally full of Christian majority countries now? That didn't happen by accident.

originally posted by: lavatrance
They've killed many people who created cartoons about Mohammad.

an if u insult Mohammad they now just cut ur dink off

As opposed to starving and crippling entire countries through sanctions and military invasions because your corrupt leaders don't like their corrupt leaders. So humane...

ETA: Not that I agree with killing over printing his image. Though I do avoid instances where people intentionally print or draw it in order to provoke us. However, I think it's ridiculous that you would use that as an example while my Christian majority country (the US) has been in a state of perpetual war for nearly its entire existence. But I guess we should ignore that and the other Western wars? Ironically, it reminds me of a Biblical passage which basically says "who are you to complain about a splinter in your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own eye"? Matthew 7:3 (here)

a reply to: babalon1971

When it's bigotry, it's easy to say that it is.

If it wasn't bigotry, it wouldn't matter to you

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: babalon1971

A lot of people are afraid because of all the violence that follows that belief system. When that happens, more and more inroads are made, and nations end up becoming Islamic.

You mean like the last 500 years straight of wars waged by the Christian-majority Western countries? Or the tens of millions of people killed by atheist communist regimes in China, Ethiopia's Derg regime, and the other Cold War proxy wars? Or the millions killed and raped by the Buddhist-Shinto Japanese empire, like in China and the Korean Peninsula?

Human societies have always been violent regardless of their supposed ideologies and beliefs. There are violent Buddhist and Hindu extremist movements right now that rarely get talked about in the West. And many of the Central American drug cartels and Italian organized crime families are proudly (and notoriously) Christian. I think it's better to blame the violent individuals instead of the ideologies/religions they claim to follow.

I mean exactly what I stated. It's a known fact that, when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result. All who claim to be peaceful don't seem to change that. Perhaps they can't. Perhaps they see it as justified. Either way, it happens, time and time again. In this country, in Dearborn MI, Muslims literally stoned Christians for carrying signs at a public event. The Muslim-controlled police force there did nothing to protect them. Yeah, people are afraid for a reason.

No amount of violence by other groups, in other places, changes that. In the case of a drug cartel, people would be afraid because the cartel would act to protect interests. In the case of Islam, people are afraid because of the violence against any who are different. White girls sexually assaulted in European countries, Muslims demanding no one drink or wear certain clothing in European cities, in areas the Muslims claim as their own, and so forth, are all examples of this. Does every Muslim support this? No, of course not. Hubby worked with some, while deployed, who were as disgusted by the behavior as anyone else. Yet those violent ones are not stopped, and they act based on their beliefs. So, people are afraid.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

You do realize Muslim majority countries have laws and justice systems, right? And ironically, they get a lot of criticism from the West for being too harsh on lawbreakers. So do you see the contradiction here?

On one hand, people like you claim that "when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result" (as if violence isn't the result of humans from any other demographic gathering in large numbers). And you also said "Yet those violent ones are not stopped, and they act based on their beliefs." (both from your last post)

But on the other hand, when the Muslim controlled region hands out stiff penalties for the violent ones you're alluding to, people still complain lol. If you really think that "when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result", you should be glad that the Muslim majority is being "tough on the crime/criminals" involved. Shouldn't it be a good thing that Muslim controlled regions don't like crime and are tough on crime/criminals? Or do you only care about this when you get to fearmonger against us? Which one is it?

And since you mentioned Dearborn, try comparing the numbers and percentages of crimes in America committed by Muslims to the numbers committed by every other demographic. I think you'll be surprised that Muslims are always one of the least violent and least lawbreaking demographics. We also typically have higher than average incomes and education levels, but I'll let you look into this stuff yourself. Because if you do, you'll see the difference between facts and fearmongering.

Oh yeah, that "when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result" comment is pretty ridiculous. That's like saying "when Christians reach certain numbers in a bar or nightclub, violence is the result." Technically it's true, but the comment would be true regardless of the religious affiliation of the people involved. You act as if Hindus, Jews, atheists, and Buddhists don't potentially fight or get violent when they get in large numbers...

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

You do realize Muslim majority countries have laws and justice systems, right? And ironically, they get a lot of criticism from the West for being too harsh on lawbreakers. So do you see the contradiction here?

Laws such as condemning a rape victim? We can discuss those laws, but it won't make Islam look less violent.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
On one hand, people like you claim that "when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result" (as if violence isn't the result of humans from any other demographic gathering in large numbers). And you also said "Yet those violent ones are not stopped, and they act based on their beliefs." (both from your last post)

But on the other hand, when the Muslim controlled region hands out stiff penalties for the violent ones you're alluding to, people still complain lol. If you really think that "when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result", you should be glad that the Muslim majority is being "tough on the crime/criminals" involved. Shouldn't it be a good thing that Muslim controlled regions don't like crime and are tough on crime/criminals? Or do you only care about this when you get to fearmonger against us? Which one is it?

Penalties against criminals aren't related to violence against non-Muslims. We both know that. The issue here is violence against non-Muslims, or even Muslims who don't agree with one another.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
And since you mentioned Dearborn, try comparing the numbers and percentages of crimes in America committed by Muslims to the numbers committed by every other demographic. I think you'll be surprised that Muslims are always one of the least violent and least lawbreaking demographics. We also typically have higher than average incomes and education levels, but I'll let you look into this stuff yourself. Because if you do, you'll see the difference between facts and fearmongering./quote]

That is a clear case of Muslims attacking people for being Christian, and the police, shown to be present in video, allowing it. You want to excuse that because there is other crime? No, not happening.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Oh yeah, that "when Muslims reach certain numbers in any country, violence is the result" comment is pretty ridiculous. That's like saying "when Christians reach certain numbers in a bar or nightclub, violence is the result." Technically it's true, but the comment would be true regardless of the religious affiliation of the people involved. You act as if Hindus, Jews, atheists, and Buddhists don't potentially fight or get violent when they get in large numbers...

It isn't ridiculous if it's true. Want sources?

that's funny considering I grew up with people of many nationalities including Muslims and they agree that this is a scam yet they see nothing wrong with it because it is ingrained in them that Islam is the only way , yet they mix with infidel such as myself so shove your bigotry back in your soapbox ok

a reply to: babalon1971

Bigotry ? You are a moron i said I don't want anyone praying over my food ,it's about my free choice so get over the bigotry card .

Your free choice?

Sure why not, then its another's free choice to pray over your food, however, after you have bought food who is praying over it?

You have said this a couple of times now that you don't someone praying over "my" food.

After you have bought the food are there people coming over to your house and praying in front your fridge?

I don't get it, or is this like another mentioned because of certain taxes?

Do you actually think that if you weren't paying a certain tax that your food would be cheaper?

I live in Australia, I eat food.

Everything some bring up here in this thread is so foreign to me.

Like others mentioned and like you say you have free choice, you are free to shop where ever you like, you don't like Muslims serving you at the counter, You are free to shop else where.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

are you aware of how hard it is to get meat or dairy products that are not halal ,most schools only serve halal food < even in the armed forces halal makes up at least 30 percent of food served with less than 100 muslims serving in the military

a reply to: babalon1971

are you aware of how hard it is to get meat or dairy products that are not halal

Seriously?

You have never heard of a supermarket, You are in Australia, Coles, Safeway..... have quite a variety, if those don't meet your standards there are these brand new stores, 'butchers' they sell meat,, Yeah I know, who would have thought.

What really has me stumped is why it matters, yeah its your free right and what not, but seriously does the meat taste different?

I really don't get it, it just seems like you have issues with bigotry, so far your only explanation is you have free choice.

Its clear that you don't know what that is and quite sad that you would prefer meat from slaughterhouses that kill the animals in probably the most inhumane way when it comes to how meat is prepared for consumption.

Can you explain other than its your own free choice why it matters if the meat is no different?

originally posted by: babalon1971
a reply to: InhaleExhale

are you aware of how hard it is to get meat or dairy products that are not halal ,most schools only serve halal food < even in the armed forces halal makes up at least 30 percent of food served with less than 100 muslims serving in the military

The reason it's hard to find "non-Halal" foods is because nearly all foods are Halal to begin with. Other than pork, blood, and carrion, you'd have to take deliberate actions to make all other foods non-Halal.

If you kill an animal other than a pig, it's naturally Halal. In order to make that meat "non-Halal", you'd have to beat the animal to death, have wild animals maul it to death, have horned animals stab it to death, push it off a cliff to kill it, strangle it to death, dedicate its death to another deity, or intentionally mix it with pork products/juices. You literally have to go out of your way to make foods non-Halal. And guess what? If the meat in your neighborhood wasn't killed with one of the methods I listed, it should naturally be Halal.

But many factories use the same equipment for creating vastly different food products. And sometimes there is residue from other products that makes it into a completely different product. This is why they list when food is made on the same equipment as peanuts and tree nuts; because trace amounts may get in the product. And this is bad for people with tree nut and peanut allergies. And other times, companies add ingredients that they don't list on their labels (like what Cadbury was doing by adding lard to their products). So many companies are simply guaranteeing that they're not mixing products anymore.

It's the same with many "gluten free" labels. Gluten is a wheat protein, so of course it's not naturally going to be in peanut butter, fruit, meats, or other products with no wheat. But when dealing with processed foods, that's not always the case. Sometimes, companies add all kinds of weird ingredients to make their products unique or give it a distinct flavor (including wheat products). And sometimes, residue from products containing wheat can get into other products (like I listed above).

So companies add the "Gluten Free" labels to let customers know that they haven't added wheat products to their products, and to let them know that they don't use the same equipment for wheat containing and non-wheat containing products. This is the same thing they're doing with Halal labels.

But if you really don't want to eat Halal foods so badly, just dip your food in lard before you eat it. Or dedicate it's death, preparation, or consumption to Zeus or Ravana. LOL Then, it won't be Halal anymore and you won't have to complain anymore. Sound good?

a reply to: babalon1971

Out of honest curiosity, and as a guy who catches a lot of Pacific salmon every summer, how does the "beaten to death" thing work with salmon? Most folks (up here in Alaska, anyway) bash their salmon in the head with a stick called a "priest" that's kind of like a little sawed off baseball bat. I personally bleed my fish, cutting the gill rakers or ripping the whole gills out by hand and leaving the fish in flowing water for their hearts to pump out the blood (salmon blood makes the meat fishier and leads to quicker spoilage vs a cleanly drained fish and I find a certain indignity to pummeling a fish you've just defeated...) the thing is, very few people do this, including the couple of middle easterners I've fished with over the years, all preferring the bash the fish's skull method.

As an aside, Christianity doesn't have any food rules, strict or otherwise, outside of some fringe fundamentalist sects. Jesus stated that "What enters a man does not make the man unclean" in reference to the Old Testament's unclean foods list. That said, I reckon even if He had held the line that we shouldn't eat "unclean" foods, I'd still eat pork and shellfish. They're just too tasty and convenient to get too riled up over, IMO.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I'm guessing you meant that question for me, right? Yeah, beating the salmon to death would make it non-Halal, according to the Qur'an (I'll link the exact quote below). So they'd have to use an alternate killing method. To my limited knowledge, all permissible ways for us to kill animals include draining the blood since blood is forbidden to us. So your method probably works for that. (note: I said "to my limited knowledge" because I'm a vegetarian and don't deal in killing animals. So I don't know all of the exact methods they use.)

Qur'an 5:3, Pickthall translation (here)

Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

ETA: And just a head's up, not all people from the Middle East are Muslims. And not all Muslims follow the same techniques and practices. And not all Muslims are practicing Muslims.

Just like with every other religion, there are Muslims who follow some parts of our scriptures and ignore other parts. Even I'm like that to an extent. I fully respect the Qur'an, though it's so detailed that it's hard for me to remember some of its conditions for a situaiton. But I ignore the Sunna and Hadith, unless they agree with my beliefs, my personal relationship/understanding with God, and don't contradict my understandings of the Qur'an.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

The point is not if the food is or were naturally halaal to begin with, we are not asking or debating what the definition of halaal is. So, with all respect, stop deflecting.

The point is why do I as a non muslim have to PAY for something that has no meaning to me personally? Why can I not choose to buy a product without said label and pay a slightly(even if it is only 5c) lower price? Basically every item in the store have the halaal label on them, my choice is very limited and getting smaller if i wish to buy only those that do not.

Would you eat something that had a label stating it to be certified christian or kosher? (no other labels)
Would you be happy to pay for something that has christian labeling on it which costs you extra even though you are not a follower of that faith?
I doubt it.