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USAF warms to the idea of an upgraded F-22 line.
page: 1share:
www.flightglobal.com...
There is a logic to it.
One line that really surprised was the 'possible' involvement of foreign investment in the project!
The other manufacturers, Boeing and the rest, would prefer a new and open competition for a sixth Gen fighter. Of course, more cash input for LockMart in an newly upgraded F-22 is in their interests.
Turning the superb F-22 into a F-35-like distribution to allies would ensure western dominance for extra decades at a lower cost than A straight new line as proposed by Congress.
An interesting development.
There is a logic to it.
One line that really surprised was the 'possible' involvement of foreign investment in the project!
The other manufacturers, Boeing and the rest, would prefer a new and open competition for a sixth Gen fighter. Of course, more cash input for LockMart in an newly upgraded F-22 is in their interests.
Turning the superb F-22 into a F-35-like distribution to allies would ensure western dominance for extra decades at a lower cost than A straight new line as proposed by Congress.
An interesting development.
a reply to: nwtrucker
If only the F-22 could land on a carrier. Would be interesting to see how much heavier she'd get with the reinforcements.
I think the hardest part about getting the line back open will be the uncertainty the suppliers would have. They were promised 800 then 400 then 200. They made a lot less money then they were supposed to.
Then the question comes of building the exact same aircraft or more of an "E" version that has some of the avionics of the F-35 implemented. More of a strike-capable aircraft. The whole thing is a quagmire. It might be faster to just start the 6th gen development now on an accelerated schedule. If this election goes "right" then there could be a possibility of something like that happening. They should really look at getting big numbers of F-35s out quicker. Ramp it up so that they are popping out like Honda civics in the late 90s. That solves the shortage and gives America the advantage for longer at probably a better price.
If only the F-22 could land on a carrier. Would be interesting to see how much heavier she'd get with the reinforcements.
I think the hardest part about getting the line back open will be the uncertainty the suppliers would have. They were promised 800 then 400 then 200. They made a lot less money then they were supposed to.
Then the question comes of building the exact same aircraft or more of an "E" version that has some of the avionics of the F-35 implemented. More of a strike-capable aircraft. The whole thing is a quagmire. It might be faster to just start the 6th gen development now on an accelerated schedule. If this election goes "right" then there could be a possibility of something like that happening. They should really look at getting big numbers of F-35s out quicker. Ramp it up so that they are popping out like Honda civics in the late 90s. That solves the shortage and gives America the advantage for longer at probably a better price.
a reply to: nwtrucker
Ok silly question not in USA but I read this country is spending $12 billion for 60 F-35 (let's say don't quote me) but they will enter service in 2020
Are all of these in combat (as in are they used on regular basis) or is this more about how much you have in stock. Or put it easier if you were in charge would you increase or cut back on spending (assuming you are USA)
Because out of the ones I mentioned I only ever heard on news 2 jets were send into a combat plus I read this article
Ok silly question not in USA but I read this country is spending $12 billion for 60 F-35 (let's say don't quote me) but they will enter service in 2020
Are all of these in combat (as in are they used on regular basis) or is this more about how much you have in stock. Or put it easier if you were in charge would you increase or cut back on spending (assuming you are USA)
Because out of the ones I mentioned I only ever heard on news 2 jets were send into a combat plus I read this article
IT WAS supposed to be next generation fighter, a weapon capable of destroying and outrunning any enemy. Six years on from a $1 trillion investment, it appears incapable of both. Plagued by glitches and behind schedule by half a decade, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter might have just received the final nail in its very expensive coffin.
Great news if it happens: an upgraded F-22 - call it an F-22B/C or F-22 Plus - would act as a great bridge to the true new generation 6th generation
fighter, depending on timelines. Restarting the line won't be cheap, but it would certainly mean the US and perhaps some select allies would have a
lot more flexibility in air dominance, rather than relying on the F-35, which is a lot better than many realize, but really an upgraded F-22 would be
in a different league. Some of the advantages I see are...
1) Allowing the plane to act as a test bed for some 6th generation technologies (i.e. new aircraft skins, next generation radars and avionics, engines) in a pure air dominance platform.
2) Testing new manufacturing technologies.
3) Developing the operational capabilities of a true 5th gen ++ platform and seeing how much of an advantage it is compared to gen 5, and what is truly possible with acceptable risk in gunning for Gen 6.
Hope they get it up and running: and I can imagine some of the guys who were involved in its development may be coaxed out of existing jobs or retirement. Interesting to see how they handle that part.
1) Allowing the plane to act as a test bed for some 6th generation technologies (i.e. new aircraft skins, next generation radars and avionics, engines) in a pure air dominance platform.
2) Testing new manufacturing technologies.
3) Developing the operational capabilities of a true 5th gen ++ platform and seeing how much of an advantage it is compared to gen 5, and what is truly possible with acceptable risk in gunning for Gen 6.
Hope they get it up and running: and I can imagine some of the guys who were involved in its development may be coaxed out of existing jobs or retirement. Interesting to see how they handle that part.
a reply to: Borys
I could see them implementing improvements from the F-35 program but not trying to implement un-vetted tech. Implementing "6th" gen tech and unproven manufacturing techniques could lead to a big jump in price. The whole point of the F-22 coming back would be to be a day 1 airframe that can start supplementing squadrons in the USAF immediately. They wouldn't do it if it would take years just to reach IOC. Might as well spend that time on the next one.
I could see them implementing improvements from the F-35 program but not trying to implement un-vetted tech. Implementing "6th" gen tech and unproven manufacturing techniques could lead to a big jump in price. The whole point of the F-22 coming back would be to be a day 1 airframe that can start supplementing squadrons in the USAF immediately. They wouldn't do it if it would take years just to reach IOC. Might as well spend that time on the next one.
a reply to: Identities
The F-35 is a bureaucratically-laced program so it has plenty of negative press out there because it has so much Washington all over it. Most of it is ill-informed and misguided. The F-35 is excellent. It's just under 400x as much magnification as any other program in history. People wonder why the DoD likes to do so much in absolute secrecy.
The F-35 is a bureaucratically-laced program so it has plenty of negative press out there because it has so much Washington all over it. Most of it is ill-informed and misguided. The F-35 is excellent. It's just under 400x as much magnification as any other program in history. People wonder why the DoD likes to do so much in absolute secrecy.
a reply to: nwtrucker
I'm just a fan. Most of these questions have already been addressed by Zaphod 58 and others....who are very opposed to the concept.
At a guess there's always a balance point between going with vetted technology and untested- in combat- technology.
If nothing new is used, no progress. Too much- possibly the F-35- and problems mount. Heck, this may be nothing more than a PR move than anything else. Perhaps this out-going general is heading to L.M. for his next employment and just garnered his first raise...
The first thing that comes to mind is allies bailing from the F-35 program for F-22s....?
I'm just a fan. Most of these questions have already been addressed by Zaphod 58 and others....who are very opposed to the concept.
At a guess there's always a balance point between going with vetted technology and untested- in combat- technology.
If nothing new is used, no progress. Too much- possibly the F-35- and problems mount. Heck, this may be nothing more than a PR move than anything else. Perhaps this out-going general is heading to L.M. for his next employment and just garnered his first raise...
The first thing that comes to mind is allies bailing from the F-35 program for F-22s....?
a reply to: Bfirez
Without Congress repealing the law it doesn't. If they repeal it then either they go through the FMS office and get massive discounts subsidized by us, or straight to Lockheed and buy a small number that they can afford at whatever price they negotiate.
Without Congress repealing the law it doesn't. If they repeal it then either they go through the FMS office and get massive discounts subsidized by us, or straight to Lockheed and buy a small number that they can afford at whatever price they negotiate.
edit on 5/28/2016 by Zaphod58
because: (no reason given)
a reply to: nwtrucker
I am going to make myself really, really popular here, but...
This is a bad idea.
A really bad idea.
The time and planning needed for a new F-22 model will take ten years with the restart, testing and acceptance.
This would have been a good idea circa 2005 when they declared IOC. Finish the run of the A model even when they did, except to dribble out the minimum to keep the line open until whatever changes were needed for the C. Then we'd be starting the F-22C production now.
By the time we get the Raptor back up and in production, we'd be 2/3s of the way through getting a 6th gen through the development and to IOC. Its a difference of 5 years, a huge amount of capability and would delay the 6th gen by at least 10 years.
I hate that the USAF has frakked up with the 22 - its a beaut - but this would be just be making a bad situation worse.
I am going to make myself really, really popular here, but...
This is a bad idea.
A really bad idea.
The time and planning needed for a new F-22 model will take ten years with the restart, testing and acceptance.
This would have been a good idea circa 2005 when they declared IOC. Finish the run of the A model even when they did, except to dribble out the minimum to keep the line open until whatever changes were needed for the C. Then we'd be starting the F-22C production now.
By the time we get the Raptor back up and in production, we'd be 2/3s of the way through getting a 6th gen through the development and to IOC. Its a difference of 5 years, a huge amount of capability and would delay the 6th gen by at least 10 years.
I hate that the USAF has frakked up with the 22 - its a beaut - but this would be just be making a bad situation worse.
May be the 6th gen will be just an enhanced F-22 Raptor , we are at a time of the Platform come to the maximum flight enveloppe and the plane will not
evolve realy more than that. If the F-22 work well its time to continue with it. A futur super Raptor , will be surely enough to dominate the sky for
a half century. Look at the ennemy they have nothing to match the Raptor in a near futur so a super Raptor will be the answer. And I prefer a super
Raptor built instead of a futur very distant may be 6TH gen.
edit on 28-5-2016 by darksidius because: (no reason given)
a reply to: darksidius
An enhanced F-22 is still fifth gen. Even if they put F-35 systems on it it's still fifth gen.
An enhanced F-22 is still fifth gen. Even if they put F-35 systems on it it's still fifth gen.
a reply to: anzha
This subject is heavily debated on the F-16 Net site.
I haven't seen anything approaching a 10 year time frame. Some 2-3 years as all the plans are still intact. The problem being the suppliers of various parts.... and they were legion.
I will rebut with this point, if your 10 years is accurate then how long for a 6th gen.? Allowing the basic F-22 is sound, a ground up 6th Gen will be much longer to develop as nothings proven tech-wise...or even looked at(?). The cost would be a lot higher than a 5.5 gen F-22.
Sorry, but I remain unconvinced.....
This subject is heavily debated on the F-16 Net site.
I haven't seen anything approaching a 10 year time frame. Some 2-3 years as all the plans are still intact. The problem being the suppliers of various parts.... and they were legion.
I will rebut with this point, if your 10 years is accurate then how long for a 6th gen.? Allowing the basic F-22 is sound, a ground up 6th Gen will be much longer to develop as nothings proven tech-wise...or even looked at(?). The cost would be a lot higher than a 5.5 gen F-22.
Sorry, but I remain unconvinced.....
a reply to: darksidius
You either keep advancing or others do. If you don't build something better than what we have now, in 20 years we're exactly where we are now, with other countries catching up, and our forces so old they are starting to fall out of the sky.
You either keep advancing or others do. If you don't build something better than what we have now, in 20 years we're exactly where we are now, with other countries catching up, and our forces so old they are starting to fall out of the sky.
edit on 5/28/2016 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason
given)
originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darksidius
You either keep advancing or others do. If you don't build something better than what we have now, in 20 years we're exactly where we are now, with other countries catching up, and our forces so old they are starting to fall out of the sky.
So true zap. I have a idea. lets just finally bring a armed Black dorito out and really scare the rest of the worlds militaries.
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