BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

originally posted by: uncommitted
Come back with facts, then I'll listen.

Here are some facts...

The EU makes 50% of our laws and regulations...
fullfact.org...

We pay the EU £13 million (£8.5m net) a day as a membership fee...
fullfact.org...

The EU restricts our ability to rescue failing industries with state aid...
eur-lex.europa.eu...:12008E107 fixed link here

We don't have control of our borders while inside the EU...
www.europedia.moussis.eu...


What are you reasons for wanting to Remain?

Nigel Farage exposing the EU commissioners...

EU commission in 2010



EU commission in 2015




It's true that the each member states appoint a commissioner. This is how the Remain camp claims that the EU is democratic. Our commissioner this term is Lord Hill. However what it an EU commissioner? What does it involve?
en.wikipedia.org...

Here is the oath that they have to take before becoming appointed...

Having been appointed as a Member of the European Commission by the European Council, following the vote of consent by the European Parliament I solemnly undertake: to respect the Treaties and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union in the fulfilment of all my duties; to be completely independent in carrying out my responsibilities, in the general interest of the Union; in the performance of my tasks, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any Government or from any other institution, body, office or entity; to refrain from any action incompatible with my duties or the performance of my tasks. I formally note the undertaking of each Member State to respect this principle and not to seek to influence Members of the Commission in the performance of their tasks. I further undertake to respect, both during and after my term of office, the obligation arising therefrom, and in particular the duty to behave with integrity and discretion as regards the acceptance, after I have ceased to hold office, of certain appointments or benefits.

As you can read, the EU commissioner are not there representing their country, they are there to represent the EU and the lobbyists.

The EU commission is the executive, it is the government of Europe and it has the sole right to propose legislation. It does so in consultation with 3000 secret committees, staffed mainly by big business and big capital, all the legislation is proposed in secret.

Once something becomes an EU law it is the EU commission themselves who have the sole right to propose to repeal or change that legislation.

a reply to: Shuye

Because you cannot prove an election is rigged doesn't mean that it's not.

True.
But the absence of any significant and physical evidence would suggest that an election is not rigged.

I don't in anyway doubt the possibility of vote rigging, I would just like to see some actual evidence.

Bear in mind that putting your X in pencil next to your choice on a piece of paper still accounts for the vast majority of votes cast in any UK election.
Tampering with electronic votes is impossible in the UK for the simple reason it doesn't exist!

I'm certain our politicians and other concerned parties use far more subtler methods to influence the outcome of our elections.

a reply to: Freeborn

There has been voter intimidation and some postal voting is dubious.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: uncommitted

Yes, I agree that the Brexit campaigners haven't exactly been covering themselves in glory but that seems to be more to do with their incompetence and the pathetic standards of those who put themselves up for 'public service' these days.
Boris Johnson is an absolute joke and is the Remain camps biggest asset.

There is nonsense spouted on both sides - much of that seems to be due to the British public's limited attention span and apparent inability to process anything like reasoned or 'complex' publications etc.

All probably down to the sustained dumbing down of British society that has been going on for quite some time now.
Now we know why!

But the Remain campaigners have been able to call on significantly more sophisticated and expensive resources to voice their case.
It can hardly be called an even balanced or funded campaign.

I always thought Boris was put forward to lead the Leave campaign as a sort of a double bluff. He really has not done the campaign any justice at all and it is becoming embarrassing.

However, I made my mind up many years ago about the E.U and all this talk of the U.K having a veto is absolute bollocks. When was the last time our veto was successful? As it stands we have a round 8% voting rights in the E.U, down from 17% in 1975. This is due to rise to around 13% due to the U.K's population being around 13% of the E.U population, but countries can still enforce the 8% influence until March 2017. As the U.K is not particularly liked very much within the union, our influence is zero, as other countries form alliances and go against the U.K.

Why are people waiting for the Leave campaign to do their work for them? Why don't they just do their own research? My guess is that they are far too lazy or incapable of trawling through the thousands of pages on the E.U and the U.K's membership.

This really is our last chance to get the hell out of this dying Union, if we go, many countries will follow suit I believe.

If we remain, regardless of the deal Cameron has come up with, and it isn't much, we will have no choice but to join the Euro at some stage, it will be enforced. Also, it will give the green light for the unelected commissioners to come up with all sorts of meddling in the way we live our lives.

A Federal Europe is on the horizon and anyone denying this are either blinkered or thick as pig #.

a reply to: Freeborn

Sorry I meant the common market not the commonwealth! How I fudged that I don't know! Ill be calling the European union the Euro-vision next and TPTB the TTIP if I don't check myself! Ha thanks for the correction.

a reply to: uncommitted

I've never stated that the Brexit campaign is free from obfuscation and scaremongering just that the Remain side have more resources to call on in their efforts to confuse and frighten.

'Smoke in mirrors' is a phrase that applies to both sides.

I'm just stating black and white facts that the leave campaign simply trample on to make an appeal to emotion.

At times yes they do but it pails into insignificance when compared to the portents of apocalyptic doom that come from the Remain side.

Without even mentioning the elephant in the room that is immigration that no-one really seems to want to discuss in an open and frank manner, personally the 'emotive' aspect is the real core issue; the UK elected assembly must be the ultimate authority on UK law making and that is the diametric opposite to what the EU openly states is its ultimate goal and objective.

I see the sense and agree with being part of a Free Trade Association.
To a large extent I even support a joint defence policy.
Under certain circumstances I could support free and open travel within constituent members of a Free Trade Association.

But I can not and will not support political union and the transfer of ultimate authority to Brussels.

Can we hear Mama Cass sing something honest? I don't care which side it's from but I'd just like honesty.

I agree entirely - there's just so much absolute bollocks being spouted by BOTH sides.

No Mama Cass but I think this sums it up perfectly;

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: Freeborn

So right now on BBC2 - 17:55 on Monday 23rd May there is a broadcast from the Leave campaign again saying the UK pays £350 million a week to the EU and gets no money back. We don't pay that amount, never have, it's wrong from the start and doesn't take into account the rebate (put in place by Thatcher let's not forget whether people like it or not), the subsidies it then funds for industries such as farming or into areas of low economic growth, or the direct trade access to the EU without having to negotiate separate terms or (like Norway) abide with all of the EU regs but with zero seat at the actual table.

I'm just stating black and white facts that the leave campaign simply trample on to make an appeal to emotion.

Can we hear Mama Cass sing something honest? I don't care which side it's from but I'd just like honesty.

Ha ha, you come on here bemoaning the Brexit campaign, yet present your own argument without any actual sources to back it up.

The way our contribution works is that we are asked for £18 billion each year, but a £5billion rebate is applied immediately bringing the sum down to around £13billion payable. On top of that, we get around £4billion in subsidies.

The £4billion is paid through farming subsidies and European Social Fund funded programmes.

So £350million per week is incorrect, it roughly equates to £250million per week, using official figures.

However, there are other grants that COULD become available which equates to around £1.4billion per year. So if we take that into consideration, we are probably out of pocket to the tune of £175 million per week.

There is no evidence, none, nada, zero, zilch evidence that being a member of the E.U has any economic benefits to the U.K, so the absolute bollocks being bandied about by your mate Cameron and his weasel Osborne cannot be ratified.

We can be pretty sure about how much cash we put in, but it’s far harder to be sure about how much, if anything, comes back in economic benefits. “There is no definitive study of the economic impact of the UK’s EU membership or the costs and benefits of withdrawal”, as the House of Commons Library says.

But as you have obviously made up your mind, despite the protests you have made about still being on the fence, please bring us some facts, not just the regurgitated bollocks spouted by the remain camp.

fullfact.org...

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: uncommitted
Come back with facts, then I'll listen.

Here are some facts...

The EU makes 50% of our laws and regulations...
fullfact.org...


What are you reasons for wanting to Remain?

Going for the first one because after that it just keeps saying similar. It says between 15% and 50% depending on your opinion. Would you like to try again?

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: uncommitted
Come back with facts, then I'll listen.

Here are some facts...

The EU makes 50% of our laws and regulations...
fullfact.org...

It would help if you read your own "evidence". The link states between 14% and 53%, depending on your definition of "law" and even then only in as much as UK law has to be compliant with EU regs. In fact, most of our legislation goes further than required by EU regs.

And remember, these EU regs come almost entirely from the EU parliament, a Parliament we sent elected representatives to.

I agree with an earlier poster that there is a lot of noise and nonsense from both sides. However, the Brexit are by far the most disingenuous.

Ask yourself this: are the Brexit leaders genuinely ignorant of how things work or are they exploiting their voters' traditional dislike of "boring politics"?

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You're right. There is no evidence that we benefit financially from EU membership...if, like you do, we ignore the effect on British trade.

The CBI, on the other hand, does take it into account. They want in.

Funny that.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You've done it again. You've posted a link that undermines your own argument.

For heaven's sake man, stop, read and think!

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You really do sound like your avatar looks don't you? I'm still on the fence because frankly I don't buy into rhetoric that you do. Let me give you an example -

"There is no evidence, none, nada, zero, zilch evidence that being a member of the E.U has any economic benefits to the U.K, so the absolute bollocks being bandied about by your mate Cameron and his weasel Osborne cannot be ratified. "

Given I don't know either of them you again look to score some very strange points by suggesting that because I don't agree with you, I must agree with them. Grow up.

It's a given the EU is our largest trading partner and there is as of yet any evidence to show dealing with the EU while outside of it would be economically advantageous to us unless you agree with your new mate (lol) Boris.

Mate, either grow a pair or stay out of it. You come across as a child even though you pertain not to be.

I'll vote for whoever has the most compelling vote by June 22nd. Glad to see you've made your mind up based on your own little mindset - well done, good luck. Why do some people think attacking the player not the ball is the answer here - never actually had any balls? Maybe.

a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese


Depending on your definition of laws? Well I would expect remain to say 14% and leave to say 53%.

Our elected MEP's have very little say on laws passed in the E.U, except the ones they vote in favour of. Our total representation currently stands at 8% of the votes, which will rise to 13% and is due to come into full effect in April 2017.

The commissioners are unelected and these are the law makers, simple as.

a reply to: uncommitted

I'm debating facts pure and simple, you play the man and not the ball every time, just as you are now.

I presented the fact that the Government have never commissioned a study to determine the economic benefits of being in the U.K, which leads me to believe there are none.

Argue the facts, not the man.

a reply to: 83Liberty

and in particular the duty to behave with integrity and discretion as regards the acceptance, after I have ceased to hold office, of certain appointments or benefits.

That bits particularly juicy... behave with integrity and discretion regarding the acceptance of certain appointments and benefits at the end of the term of office is it? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink...
Hmm...

One of the best propaganda films that I've seen in a while. Obviously funded by the leave campaign.

It's hard to watch this and not want to leave. (At least that's how I felt and I'm American.) Don't let the EU tell you what to do!

a reply to: uncommitted

The thing about trade is that is that it is essentially about supply and demand, anything else is just obfuscation of this basic concept of economics. Funny how since joining the EEC the UK's economy has drastically shifted from supply to demand, I wonder if it's just pure coincidence?

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: uncommitted
Come back with facts, then I'll listen.

Here are some facts...

The EU makes 50% of our laws and regulations...
fullfact.org...


What are you reasons for wanting to Remain?

Going for the first one because after that it just keeps saying similar. It says between 15% and 50% depending on your opinion. Would you like to try again?

Of course I have read my own link I provided, even better than that I have actually comprehended it, unlike you and Whodathunkdatcheese.

It clearly states...

EU regulations and regulations influenced by or related to the EU — accounts for 53%

Surely we should be using all the laws passed by the EU, not just some of the laws to fit your argument.

Never agreed with all that Tony Benn said but he was without doubt a politician of conviction and integrity and whenever he spoke it was well worth a listen.

The first video was taken in 2007 and the second one was when he addressed The Oxford Union shortly before his death.