The wage gap

a reply to: ScepticScot

Your post here just shows where you get your information and your bias from. You might as well be a Republican citing Fox news as a source.

Thinkprogress? More like ThinkPropaganda.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE.

It would not be remotely worth it to discriminate by any profitable business. The ramifications would be enormous. I love
"educational opportunity" more women attend and graduate college then men.
"cultural and social norms" what does that have to do with a discriminating gap? Freedom of choice is now discrimination?

Here is the wage gap myth debunked by a feminist, on the Huffpost, a leftist publication.
www.huffingtonpost.com...

a reply to: rockintitz

ALL employee's should be paid what they are worth. The ONLY criteria being "Productivity", irrespective of gender.

a reply to: rockintitz

Wait for joe to google and them he will reply...

a reply to: Winstonian

The article is by a member of a conservative think tank. Just because it's in the huffpost doesn't make it a liberal/left wing piece. It is generally a good idea to look at who is actually writing the article rather than what paper/journal it appears in.
Just because something ilegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. (If it did prisons would be very quiet places).
If you really don't understand why society can result in discrimination regardless of what the law says then I am not really sure anyone can explain it to you.

a reply to: ScepticScot

So what you are asking for is an example of a company legitimately paying less for a female employee doing the same work, with same experience etc as a male employee You now that such as thing isn't possible to show show as any examples would be illegal practise therefore not "legitimate". 

Thank you.

So basically you are reducing the pay gap to the most ridiculous level possible in order to claim it doesn't exist. 

Wage gap are the words I used.

There's a difference between wages and earnings.

Will just choice to ignore things like hiring & promotion practises, employment & educational opportunity, cultural and social norms and expectations pushing women into certain roles. Have fun with that. 

Have fun explaining why any of that is based solely on gender.

The example about risk is also complete nonsense, I probably earn more than the median salaries in most of those field yet the biggest risk I have is a particularly nasty paper cut. (off topic but does anyone know why a pilot would be considered a high risk job?) 

It is a factor, though. Why aren't more women pushing for equality in the oil rig market. Or coal mining?

There are many examples of one gender dominating a job. Like nursing.

The wage gap is a fiction. Laws were passed to eliminate it in the 60s. It does not exist. They use fabricated or doctored statistics to prove that it is "real".

Ironically, in the UK, women can expect to receive better pay offers than men for the same positions, yet the feminist media still goes on about how there is a long way to still go to close this mythical 'wage gap'

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: rockintitz

If you really can pay a woman 25c less on the dollar why don't employers fire everyone and replace them all with women?

Because corporations.. wait.. because systemic oppression.. dammit.. because patriarchy!

Logic is being trumped by emotions.

originally posted by: rockintitz
I hear this a lot. A woman will make 20-30 percent less than a man in the same position.

I'd like examples.

I'm asking for examples where a company legitimately can get away with paying a woman less based solely on gender.

Ever heard of Walmart? Cynthia Haddad won $2 million dollars from Walmart for pay discrimination. There are many other cases that are the same if you search for them.

originally posted by: Ohanka
The wage gap is a fiction. Laws were passed to eliminate it in the 60s. It does not exist. They use fabricated or doctored statistics to prove that it is "real".'

I am not sure where you get your information from, but that is incorrect. It wasn't until 2009 when Obama passed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Why did he pass that law? Because there was a statutes of limitations on filing lawsuits for wage discrimination. People would be unable to do anything about pay discrimination if too much time passed, even if you didn't know until much later.

Systematic discrimination does exist. Companies use bullying tactics to prevent people from learning what others make. Simply asking what your coworkers make is frowned upon and can cause you to be fired. If you don’t know what your co-workers earn, then how can you discover you are discriminated against? Most people have no idea.

Women are often not considered for promotions because of “boys club” atmospheres. It is difficult for women to just hang out after work and grab a beer with their male coworkers to “bond”. Men bond with men in much different ways.

I personally have also witnessed discrimination in the late 1990s. I was a teenager working at a hotel and they hired a couple to work there. The woman had YEARS of experience, her boyfriend 0. He was paid $2 more per hour than her (and myself). What did I do? I marched right into the managers office and demanded a raise. I got it.

I think unfortunately women are often too passive in situations like this. They stand by idly waiting for someone to just magically promote them without demanding it. They don't negotiate hard for high starting salaries. I think that is where half the problem lies. The other half is with the boys club.

a reply to: primespickle

Ever heard of Walmart? Cynthia Haddad won $2 million dollars from Walmart for pay discrimination. There are many other cases that are the same if you search for them. 

Thank you. There are laws that protect people from wage discrimination. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. My OP was specifically about the myth of the "wage gap"

Systematic discrimination does exist. Companies use bullying tactics to prevent people from learning what others make. Simply asking what your coworkers make is frowned upon and can cause you to be fired.

No, that would fall under common courtesy. Another person's salary really isn't my business.

Women are often not considered for promotions because of “boys clubs” atmospheres. It is difficult for women to just hang out after work and grab a beer with their male coworkers to “bond”. Men bond with men in much different ways. 

Proof? My anecdotal evidence begs to differ.

I personally have also witnessed discrimination in the late 1990s. I was a teenager working at a hotel and they hired a couple to work there. The woman had YEARS of experience, her boyfriend 0. He was paid $2 more per hour than he ( and myself). What did I do? I marched right into the managers office and demanded a raise. I got it. 

You got it? What's the issue?

I think unfortunately women are often too passive in situations like this. They stand by idly waiting for someone to just magically promote them without demanding it. They don't negotiate hard for high starting salaries. I think that is where half the problem lies. The other half is with the boys club.

Has to be, by far, the most sexist comment on this thread

I think this is the laziest thread ever. You obviously have zero background in the subject, but you sure do have lots of opinions about it.

originally posted by: rockintitz
No, that would fall under common courtesy. Another person's salary really isn't my business.

How are women supposed to know if they are paid less if they don't know what their coworkers make? Using that logic, you cannot prove or disprove pay equality.

originally posted by: rockintitz
You got it? What's the issue?

The issue is that the man was paid more even though he had less experience. I had to 1. find out it was happening which I only learned about because she told me 2. I had to do something about myself, the company didn't do it on their own.

originally posted by: rockintitz
Has to be, by far, the most sexist comment on this thread

Many studies have shown that women are less likely to ask for higher starting salaries and promotions.

Tip: You should really research a subject before you make posts about it.

Note: I wont continue to participate in this nonsense because you clearly have no intentions of having a serious discussion about the matter.

My wife, as an example, has smashed the glass ceiling.

There are exxamples on both sides.

Which brings up the question...
Instead of individual cases, has the average changed the last few decades?

I will say yes unequivocally.

Progress is being made. But it just doesnt immediately change.

a reply to: primespickle

I think this is the laziest thread ever. You obviously have zero background in the subject, but you sure do have lots of opinions about it. 

What background would be satisfactory?

How are women supposed to know if they are paid less if they don't know what their coworkers make? Using that logic, you cannot prove or disprove pay equality. 

Wage statistics are openly available. Very different from out right asking what somebody makes. Again, this is about the wage gap. Not about the difference between your pay vs. your co-worker's. There are many variables that come into play when making narrow observations.

The issue is that the man was paid more even though he had less experience. I had to 1. find out it was happening which I only learned about because she told me 2. I had to do something about myself, the company didn't do it on their own. 

Is this a direct result of him being a man? Could other factors be a cause?

Many studies have shown that women are less likely to ask for higher starting salaries and promotions. 

Tip: You should really research a subject before you make posts about it. 

I have read those same studies. They are directly in line with my point.

I'll take a second to argue yours, though.

Since women are less likely to ask for higher wages, and less likely to ask for a raise, the logical conclusion is that there is a bias against women.

This is where your argument fails.

Note: I wont continue to participate in this nonsense because you clearly have no intentions of having a serious discussion about the matter.

Won't miss you.

originally posted by: tommo39
a reply to: rockintitz

ALL employee's should be paid what they are worth. The ONLY criteria being "Productivity", irrespective of gender.

That's not really how it works though. What you're paid is just a game, it's about showing the hiring manager the appearance of value and not what you actually contribute.

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: TheOnlyAnswer

Exactly.

There will still be some who are so deluded on this charade that is the myth of the wage gap though.

I want statistics. Facts.

Are you implying that because you weren't aware that others were paid less, that it didn't actually happen? How many co-workers tax returns have you reviewed? How can you come to the conclusion that we're all paid equally absent that type of key information? I'd be interested in the statistics that you used to come to the conclusion that's it's all a lie. If you're that sure, I'd hope that you would enlighten the rest of us.

Statistics are what they are, but they all indicate that a wage gap does exist. If it exists, I think that something needs to be done. If it doesn't exist, then there is no problem and we can all go about our merry way.

a reply to: ScepticScot

So hold up, what you are effectively saying is that there is a hidden agenda that all of the male executives and business owners have in order to hold women down and make sure they are getting paid less than men?

What would be the motive there? Most men are motivated by the women in their lives, or by the women they would like have in their lives. Why would a man actively discriminate against women, knowing that the information is just short of public? The result would be a disaster for him, the repercussions would be so immense that it wouldn't even be slightly worth the risk.

Let me ask you this, honestly. What is it like going through your life believing that all white men are racist predators preying on the poor minorities and women? Do you wake up in fear every day knowing that "systemic discrimination" is leering at you around every corner?

I mean, if you believe that all white men are running around goose stepping all over the world with a racist and sexist agenda, it must affect you right?

I can't imagine living in your world of hatred and fear.

And the woman that wrote that article is an ACTUAL feminist, you know one of the ones that were fighting for womens rights, when it was actually a problem.

a reply to: ReprobateRaccoon

Statistics are what they are, but they all indicate that a wage gap does exist

Show me.

a reply to: Winstonian

Is that what I am effectively saying? Doesn't really sound very much like what I was actually saying. No suggestion of mass conspiracy or hidden agenda from me.

Just an understanding that our society is still far from perfect when it comes from discrimination. I like to think that we are moving in the right direction but we still have a long way to go.

Discrimination doesn't even need to be a conscious decision. I doubt very much many people think of themselves as sexist or bigoted. It doesn't stop them discriminating based on their upbringing or the culture they live or work in. Discrimination can subtle and unintended and still very real.

I don't know why you think I would believe that all white men are racist predators? As a white male it would be kind of a strange view point for me to have.

Perhaps everything is an absolute in your world? Does it have to be there is no discrimination or everyone is bigoted potential rapist? If so I would suggest that the one with faulty world view might be yourself. Discrimination can be (and is) a real thing without everyone putting a white robe and going round raping everywomen they see.

Love how you can pronounce that women's rights are no longer a problem. Unfortunately not everyone seems to have got the memo.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
So what you are asking for is an example of a company legitimately paying less for a female employee doing the same work, with same experience etc as a male employee You now that such as thing isn't possible to show show as any examples would be illegal practise therefore not "legitimate".

Yes, wouldn't that meet the definition of an authentic pay gap unaffected by extraneous variables? Because everything you list in your post would be classified as extraneous variables, which would interfere with the assertion that woman are truly paid less than men due to their sex alone.

If we are going to complain about work pay while including extraneous variables, then I would like to bring up my unequal pay for my work as a male model in the modelling industry. After all, since there was more demand for female models I didn't earn as much as my female counterparts and now feel I was discriminated against.

Think the majority of ATS'ers can see through the wage gap myth. Here is a good video on the subject none the less.

I have found it's easiest to direct people to the argument that if women made less for the same job. Companies would only hire women since it's in their best interest to maximize profits. Plus the same wage gap exists between Asian men and white men with Asian women closing in on white males. One thing you won't hear there 3rd wave feminists talk about is the work related deaths. Men die in far greater numbers on the job than women. But like the wage gap it's mainly due to choice of profession.

The Wage Gap is not a myth. I'll give you two examples.

My wife, makes less than her co workers despite more experience and doing better work. They get paid more, merely because they're men. She left, a few months later they begged her to come back for a $20,000 raise. She still makes less but it's at least tolerable now.

Next Jennifer Lawrence. She makes less per movie than her male counterparts. That's just a fact.

Third is the United States Women's soccer team. Despite winning and winning and winning and generating millions in revenue for the US soccer programs, they make an embarressing amount less than the men, who do not win.

if I had the time I could google and come up with millions of real world examples.

Not every female gets paid less, but the wage gap is a real thing.