The two Jesus's Matthew 27:16-23

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

Jesus the Messiah was crucified in favor of the "notorious" but mysterious Jesus Son of the Father.". Meaning the Messiah was never meant to be the Son of God, just the Messiah who leads the Israelites to glory and for that matter the whole world. But fully human.

Could you explain why you chose that particular translation? Looking at twenty two translations i found only two that translate the name Jesus Barabbas. That brings to question of which translation/s are true and which are not true. That means to me that somewhere is/are manuscript/s that reads different than the majority Greek manuscripts. Would you care to name your source?

The Jews of that time (including the apostles) were born and raised in national rabbinic Judaic doctrine. The belief of a Messiah was that a human man of the seed of David would one day appear, conquer the world and re establish the throne of David. This king would have special wisdom from the God of Abraham, would live a long life and then die just as any human would die. Another Messiah would replace this dead Messiah and continue the reign. This golden age would continue till the end of the world when all terrestrial life would be destroyed and all mankind resurrected back into their flesh, judged and either destroyed or live forever as a bodiless soul in the bundle of life. There was believed to be a possibility of two Jewish Messiah's. One was a messiah Ben Joseph or a Messiah Ben David appearing as the king.

Now that is far different from the doctrine of Jesus Ben Joseph, son of Mary, and far fetched as to Barabbas even remotely being considered to be a candidate of any Messiah.

Am I to understand that you are to edit the NT and remove all information that teaches Jesus, son of Mary, was the Begotten Son of God and replace the majority of thousands of Greek manuscripts with the notion that a thief and murderer named Barabbas was the son of the most high God? Am I missing something or just that I don't understand?

If you don't understand what I am talking about then you aren't going to suddenly see what I see if I engage you in debate. I used the NRSV because it is a reliable and trusted translation that is more committed to what the original texts say.

If you are not into this type of thing there are other threads. I am into esoteric and allegorical methods of interpretation.

a reply to: Seede

But since you are sincerely having difficulty understanding what I am saying let me break it down for you.

Mankind chose Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus the Son of the Father (God) that died as a sacrifice for your sins over:

Jesus the man with the moral teachings and burden free path to enlightenment and the keys to the Kingdom of God. That is that the Kingdom of God is within and attainable for anyone with a healthy eye.


The mythological Jesus might sound great. But the lessons he taught are more important than benefitting off human sacrifice in the guise of the Jewish Messiah called Christ.

It's MATTHEW 27:16

Not MATTHEW 26:26

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

I just read the Hiram Key and it talked about this. According to that book James his brother was the other Jesus up for killing.

a reply to: DrakeINFERNO

Who wrote that?

I'm into Eisenman and the Dead Sea Scrolls. James was the Zaddik of the Israelites called Zaddikim. They were violent and apocalyptic. I think James embraced the Nazarene lifestyle and was briefly head of the Apostles, even though he wasn't an Apostle.

His nemesis was the High Priest and Saul/Paul who both likely were involved in his death. You can connect the Herodian Saul of Josephus with Paul through one of his epistles naming a Herodias or similar name. His transformation to Paul was a ruse.

a reply to: IamSandSHEisB

Who are you talking to? I got the right numbers and I haven't read anyone mention 26:16.

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: rickymouse
Are you of a different faith or do you not accept the story of the Virgin Mary? I agree the trinity aspect was added at a much later date but was the Mary story added later too?

Are you saying that Jesus got Mary'd?

originally posted by: CapstonePendulum
Matthew 26:26-22 NRSV

16 At that time they had a notorious prisoner, call Jesus Barabbas. So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah? ". For he realized that it was out of jealousy that they handed him over. While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, " Have nothing to do with that innocent man, for today I have suffered a great deal because of a dream about him. ". Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus killed. The governor again said to them, " Which of these two do you want me to release for you? And they said "Barabbas.". Pilate said to them, " Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah? " All of them said, "Let him be crucified!". Then he asked, " Why, what evil has he done?". But they shouted all the more "Let him be crucified!"


Jesus Barabbas. Two Jesus's at one crucifixion? That's some coincidence. And as the rabbis say, "Coincidence is not a kosher word."

Another "coincidence " is that Barabbas or bar Abbas, means "son of the father", or is it Father?

I have been looking into esoteric and allegorical methods used by ancient authors to convey certain truths unspeakable at the time but necessary to preserve and the best way is in plain sight so those " with eyes" can see.

So here goes my interpretation of the esoteric message transmitted through one method of allegory, repetition. The use of certain words more than once in close proximity means pay attention.

Jesus the Messiah was crucified in favor of the "notorious" but mysterious Jesus Son of the Father.". Meaning the Messiah was never meant to be the Son of God, just the Messiah who leads the Israelites to glory and for that matter the whole world. But fully human.

The Son of the Father, which is the New Testament way of referring to God, was a pagan concept and chosen to replace the Jewish Messiah King concept because to the Romans, the best Jewish Messiah was a dead one. The Romans chose Jesus Barabbas and made a whole myth based on old pagan ideas about the Son of God being crucified and raised from the dead then returning to heaven with the promise to return some day and really defeat evil. Its been 2000 years.

So I feel pretty comfortable with the idea that some ancient scribe slipped in a message that this is not to be read as history and the real Jesus was human, but real.

So he was correctly called the Messiah because he revealed that the Kingdom of God is within and the true Israel are the people who love God and follow Jesus's teachings and that of the prophets before him. Not just the Hebrew ones but they will do fine if that is all you have.

We are all sons and daughters of God. Jesus was one of us. He was an architect, not a carpenter. Significant difference as architects were initiates of the Temple as well as literal architects or masons. The mysteries and priesthoods revolved around the temples and architects were the wisest of men learned in all the mysteries of the world. Jesus was so great because he combined the collective esoteric wisdom of the day into a much more streamlined path to enlightenment. The churches have done their best to impede enlightenment but his words are immortal and need only a healthy eye to absorb the wisdom.

Bang on regarding the Jesus-Architect connection,very interesting post in general.

a reply to: TravelleOn

Thank you kindly.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

16 At that time they had a notorious prisoner, call Jesus Barabbas. So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah?

And out of that verse of Matthew 27:16 in the NRSV bible you are enlightened with the esoteric revelation that --

Quote
"The Son of the Father, which is the New Testament way of referring to God, was a pagan concept and chosen to replace the Jewish Messiah King concept because to the Romans, the best Jewish Messiah was a dead one. The Romans chose Jesus Barabbas and made a whole myth based on old pagan ideas about the Son of God being crucified and raised from the dead then returning to heaven with the promise to return some day and really defeat evil. Its been 2000 years." Unquote--

Yes I see your intent very well and you may feel comfort in realizing that you have many disciples to sooth your sickness.

a reply to: Seede

Your words not mine. I would bet the farm we have different definitions of enlightened.

I'm interested in the psychology involved in asking a question with the purpose of making me look like I think I have secret information.

I use information that is available to everyone. No divination necessary.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

Hiram Key

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

16 At that time they had a notorious prisoner, call Jesus Barabbas. So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah?

And out of that verse of Matthew 27:16 in the NRSV bible you are enlightened with the esoteric revelation that --

Quote
"The Son of the Father, which is the New Testament way of referring to God, was a pagan concept and chosen to replace the Jewish Messiah King concept because to the Romans, the best Jewish Messiah was a dead one. The Romans chose Jesus Barabbas and made a whole myth based on old pagan ideas about the Son of God being crucified and raised from the dead then returning to heaven with the promise to return some day and really defeat evil. Its been 2000 years." Unquote--

Yes I see your intent very well and you may feel comfort in realizing that you have many disciples to sooth your sickness.

I'm sick? Why didn't my Dr. tell me?

I have disciples? I didn't know that, I was not looking for disciples. Like everyone else I come on here to learn and share. I was under the impression that this is the purpose of this website. I didn't know it was a fundamental Christian forum, I thought it was the conspiracy elements that make it so popular and fun.

And there is no bigger conspiracy than religion.


Now anyone who can't stomach what I am saying to the point where they need to call me sick and say I have disciples is clearly the sick one. Your religion makes it impossible to be polite in the face of scrutiny which is the case for anyone living a life based on lies. Cult members act just like that.

You even show desperation by questioning the translation I use. If the bible is the word of God preserved by God then that shouldn't be an issue.

It also shows that you think what I am saying is possible. Because if it wasn't, you would not try the old "bad translation" tactic.

The fact that so many translations OMIT the name Jesus from Jesus Barabbas is a good hint that something is amiss.

But I use the NRSV, one of, if not THE best modern translations using the oldest texts and being committed to accuracy in a way that the NIV and KJV are not. And Barabbas is in every translation with or without his first name.

If sickness means willing to look deeper than the surface and a refusal to accept official history without thinking critically first, in addition to using the intellect God gave me, call me sick.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

I'm sick? Why didn't my Dr. tell me?

You are not getting the proper solution to your sickness. You have the wrong doctors.

You have the right to your own opinions but that does not mean that those opinions are correct. You start out with a scripture of your own choice from a bible of your own choice and then offer nothing more than your own understanding which is disbelief in the very same scripture and bible of your own choice.

re read your own post.
Quote
"The Son of the Father, which is the New Testament way of referring to God, was a pagan concept and chosen to replace the Jewish Messiah King concept because to the Romans, the best Jewish Messiah was a dead one. The Romans chose Jesus Barabbas and made a whole myth based on old pagan ideas about the Son of God being crucified and raised from the dead then returning to heaven with the promise to return some day and really defeat evil. Its been 2000 years." Unquote--

You offer nothing more than your own concept which is plainly anti Christian.

The Begotten Son of the Father EL is the doctrine of Jesus ben Joseph. You could not even start your own rant in an honest way. While Jesus ben Joseph was about his ministry, Jesus Barabbas was locked up in prison by Pilates authority. Very clear to any one with a grade school education. Two distinct people and not hidden in the mystery pages of ancient literature.

After the murder of Jesus ben Joseph (Son of Mary). it were the temple guards that made their own watch for three days and three nights. Not the Romans but the Jews themselves made the identification and made their own watch. The accusation that you make is totally false. Rome had nothing to do with the death of Jesus ben Joseph. In fact Pilate was recalled for that very same unlawful act of murder. All death sentences must be acknowledged by the courts of Rome and Pilate did not abide by that law. Pilate was fired because of that very act and that blows your entire false rant. You know nothing of what you think you know.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

I think one of them was just a very naughty boy ....
www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

I'm sick? Why didn't my Dr. tell me?

You are not getting the proper solution to your sickness. You have the wrong doctors.

You have the right to your own opinions but that does not mean that those opinions are correct. You start out with a scripture of your own choice from a bible of your own choice and then offer nothing more than your own understanding which is disbelief in the very same scripture and bible of your own choice.

re read your own post.
Quote
"The Son of the Father, which is the New Testament way of referring to God, was a pagan concept and chosen to replace the Jewish Messiah King concept because to the Romans, the best Jewish Messiah was a dead one. The Romans chose Jesus Barabbas and made a whole myth based on old pagan ideas about the Son of God being crucified and raised from the dead then returning to heaven with the promise to return some day and really defeat evil. Its been 2000 years." Unquote--

You offer nothing more than your own concept which is plainly anti Christian.

The Begotten Son of the Father EL is the doctrine of Jesus ben Joseph. You could not even start your own rant in an honest way. While Jesus ben Joseph was about his ministry, Jesus Barabbas was locked up in prison by Pilates authority. Very clear to any one with a grade school education. Two distinct people and not hidden in the mystery pages of ancient literature.

After the murder of Jesus ben Joseph (Son of Mary). it were the temple guards that made their own watch for three days and three nights. Not the Romans but the Jews themselves made the identification and made their own watch. The accusation that you make is totally false. Rome had nothing to do with the death of Jesus ben Joseph. In fact Pilate was recalled for that very same unlawful act of murder. All death sentences must be acknowledged by the courts of Rome and Pilate did not abide by that law. Pilate was fired because of that very act and that blows your entire false rant. You know nothing of what you think you know.

I happen to think this is an interesting concept.

You can't argue from a fundamentalist perspective to an allegorist. Two different modes of thought.

The allegorist is free to depart from church doctrine in the hope of revealing hidden meanings.

The fundamentalist sees the Bible as actual history. I won't get in to how fallacious this approach is as it is designed for the masses and not the intellectual student of the mysteries.

originally posted by: CapstonePendulum
Matthew 26:26-22 NRSV

16 At that time they had a notorious prisoner, call Jesus Barabbas. So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah? ". For he realized that it was out of jealousy that they handed him over. While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, " Have nothing to do with that innocent man, for today I have suffered a great deal because of a dream about him. ". Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus killed. The governor again said to them, " Which of these two do you want me to release for you? And they said "Barabbas.". Pilate said to them, " Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah? " All of them said, "Let him be crucified!". Then he asked, " Why, what evil has he done?". But they shouted all the more "Let him be crucified!"




Jesus Barabbas. Two Jesus's at one crucifixion? That's some coincidence. And as the rabbis say, "Coincidence is not a kosher word."

Another "coincidence " is that Barabbas or bar Abbas, means "son of the father", or is it Father?

I have been looking into esoteric and allegorical methods used by ancient authors to convey certain truths unspeakable at the time but necessary to preserve and the best way is in plain sight so those " with eyes" can see.

So here goes my interpretation of the esoteric message transmitted through one method of allegory, repetition. The use of certain words more than once in close proximity means pay attention.

Jesus the Messiah was crucified in favor of the "notorious" but mysterious Jesus Son of the Father.". Meaning the Messiah was never meant to be the Son of God, just the Messiah who leads the Israelites to glory and for that matter the whole world. But fully human.

The Son of the Father, which is the New Testament way of referring to God, was a pagan concept and chosen to replace the Jewish Messiah King concept because to the Romans, the best Jewish Messiah was a dead one. The Romans chose Jesus Barabbas and made a whole myth based on old pagan ideas about the Son of God being crucified and raised from the dead then returning to heaven with the promise to return some day and really defeat evil. Its been 2000 years.

So I feel pretty comfortable with the idea that some ancient scribe slipped in a message that this is not to be read as history and the real Jesus was human, but real.

So he was correctly called the Messiah because he revealed that the Kingdom of God is within and the true Israel are the people who love God and follow Jesus's teachings and that of the prophets before him. Not just the Hebrew ones but they will do fine if that is all you have.

We are all sons and daughters of God. Jesus was one of us. He was an architect, not a carpenter. Significant difference as architects were initiates of the Temple as well as literal architects or masons. The mysteries and priesthoods revolved around the temples and architects were the wisest of men learned in all the mysteries of the world. Jesus was so great because he combined the collective esoteric wisdom of the day into a much more streamlined path to enlightenment. The churches have done their best to impede enlightenment but his words are immortal and need only a healthy eye to absorb the wisdom.

I just had to look up the Greek on this and sure enough it's in one Greek version but Iesous (Jesus) doesn't appear in the other.

Matthew 27:16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas. (Mat 27:16 KJV)

Matthew 27:16 εἶχον δὲ τότε δέσμιον ἐπίσημον λεγόμενον [Ἰησοῦν] Βαραββᾶν.

not in this version

Matthew 27:16 Εἶχον δὲ τότε δέσμιον ἐπίσημον, λεγόμενον Βαραββᾶν.

a reply to: NumberMan

And what is more likely an omission or an addition?

Omissions are more common.

originally posted by: TefarimCanin
a reply to: NumberMan

And what is more likely an omission or an addition?

Omissions are more common.

Based on hebrew dead sea scrolls the accuracy of then and now is about perfect. As far as Greek you never know, but it would be odd to add Iesous into that verse, but it appears in brackets in my version. Maybe I can look at original script on papyrus.

a reply to: NumberMan

I use a Bible that incorporates every translation and it is in the oldest versions. bar Abbas is obviously a character whose name being Jesus, son of the Father, was decided to be referred to as Barabbas as if it were a first name to prevent what I think it means from coming to light in the new world of Bible availability for the laymen.

But as time went by the Catholics have shown the most devotion to the spirit and wording of translating from the oldest texts accurately.

The NRSV w/apocrypha is my favorite.