Intelligent design theory, PROVEN

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Raggedyman

What makes us special is subjective, some believe we are just animals

We are animals. Well, I am.
What are you? A plant?

As an atheist or agnostic I inferred you would think that way, I am sure that was what I inferred, wasnt it?
Did I cross a keyboard wire, my morse code thingo breakdown, misspell subjective, bloody autocorrect

Here it is, you even quoted it, interesting

What makes us special is subjective, some believe we are just animals

You know what, I find it funny how there are at least two sides to every argument, some close minded people only see their own perspective, can only ever imagine that they and only they can be right, no other opinion is valid so that opposing opinion is worthless
Others weigh, balance then make a rational decision for themselves and accept anothers view as valid to the other person, disagree but accept the other view as different.
I accept your view Phage, I think its valid, wrong but valid, I know and understand your view, belief, assumption.

If you are not interested to search my view, not interested to consider I am different, have an opinion thats valid to me, then there aint no point me going into details with you.

But just in case I think I found a link you might be able to follow
www.thedodo.com...

and I am a christian so I have another take that also suggests otherwise
On the sixth day, Adam was created “in the image of God” and quite apart from the land animals through a clearly distinguished separate act of creation. The Hebrew word bara (create) is used three times in Genesis 1:27 to emphasize this act of creation.

answersingenesis.org...

Now of course thats not sited like a proper essay because its a post on ats, just in case I get even more complaints

a reply to: Raggedyman

The second sentence of the first article you linked says "Of course, humans are animals" it then goes on to point out two "unique" traits that makes us human, voicing our opinions and being destructive.

I've seen animals "voice" their opinion. Try to get between a dog and his bone and he will express his opinion rather clearly so that is out the window.

Predatory animals will also over hunt and it is just natures gentle hand that keeps things balanced. We are also still here so you can't really say that we have done things differently. So much for that being a trait unique to humans.

The second link, the genesis myth, well...

a reply to: Raggedyman

Here it is, you even quoted it, interesting

Yes. And then I said I am an animal. And then I asked you what you are.
Do you not think you are an animal?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

and I am a christian so I have another take that also suggests otherwise
On the sixth day, Adam was created “in the image of God” and quite apart from the land animals through a clearly distinguished separate act of creation.

and what is the "image of God"???

is it Asian?? Anglo-Saxon?? African?? Arab??

or are different skin colours considered different species?

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Raggedyman

The second sentence of the first article you linked says "Of course, humans are animals" it then goes on to point out two "unique" traits that makes us human, voicing our opinions and being destructive.

I've seen animals "voice" their opinion. Try to get between a dog and his bone and he will express his opinion rather clearly so that is out the window.

Predatory animals will also over hunt and it is just natures gentle hand that keeps things balanced. We are also still here so you can't really say that we have done things differently. So much for that being a trait unique to humans.

The second link, the genesis myth, well...

Really, you want to argue my opinion with me, based on your opinion, your belief
Did you not read my comments

The first link was a secular understanding, the second was a christian understanding.
The first link explained that even the secular can recognise a difference between man and beast, simple dont you think
I thought you might pick up on that, evidently not.
BTW, I am a christian, I have a different opinion, I can accept you have an opinion, no matter how flawed I think it is and you are welcome to that opinion.
I will contentedly live with mine, if that causes you sleepless nights, thats sad, I will also link the Genesis myth, it fits in with my belief, good or bad.
You dont control my opinion

Phage, you are welcome to consider yourself an animal, obviously, I mean obviously I dont think I am an animal, maybe its a soul thing or something beyond the physical. Beyond your understanding


and finally choos, you might not understand that the bible is a spiritual book.
I believe we are spiritual as much as we are physical, what sets us apart from animals is the image of God, the likeness.You read image as physical, I dont so much.

a reply to: Raggedyman

but which likeness??

and which skin colour?
lip feature?
eye size?
headshape?

we do sort of look like chimpanzees, we have two eyes a nose two nostrils a mouth two ears, are they also in the likeness of god?

originally posted by: choos
a reply to: Raggedyman

but which likeness??

and which skin colour?
lip feature?
eye size?
headshape?

we do sort of look like chimpanzees, we have two eyes a nose two nostrils a mouth two ears, are they also in the likeness of god?

Choos, I dont think its based on physical traits, get it?

Go study this word
Tselem - צלם
It means more than you think it does

I cant help you

Angels are supposed to look human, they were not created in Gods image.
Its spiritual, not physical.

Its spiritual, not physical.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: choos
a reply to: Raggedyman

but which likeness??

and which skin colour?
lip feature?
eye size?
headshape?

we do sort of look like chimpanzees, we have two eyes a nose two nostrils a mouth two ears, are they also in the likeness of god?

Choos, I dont think its based on physical traits, get it?

Go study this word
Tselem - צלם
It means more than you think it does

i googled it, and ill be honest it was just a quick scan from the first page of results.

i got nothing useful from it the best i got was something like this:

צֶלֶם tselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew.

so either we are meant to represent your gods ways or i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

given how i know how humans can act, ill go with i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Ca reply to: peter vlar

You and a few others here are suggesting science is the only way a person can know anything.

That's just so funny, it borders on insanity

Pv, why do you hate science, it's a serious question, why do you hate it

science is the only way a person can understand anything. you know the sun rises every morning, but do you understand why? you know milk spoils when you leave it out too long, but do you understand why? we understand why because of the scientific method and those who have applied it effectively. and thats why we continue to apply it.

I went to my doctor and said, "Hey doc, it hurts when i do this.."

He said, "Then don't do that!"

Common sense. No science needed.

originally posted by: choos

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: choos
a reply to: Raggedyman

but which likeness??

and which skin colour?
lip feature?
eye size?
headshape?

we do sort of look like chimpanzees, we have two eyes a nose two nostrils a mouth two ears, are they also in the likeness of god?

Choos, I dont think its based on physical traits, get it?

Go study this word
Tselem - צלם
It means more than you think it does

i googled it, and ill be honest it was just a quick scan from the first page of results.

i got nothing useful from it the best i got was something like this:

צֶלֶם tselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew.

so either we are meant to represent your gods ways or i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

given how i know how humans can act, ill go with i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I am well aware you have no clue
I also know that you have no interest in knowing anything about it either

originally posted by: TzarChasm

It is arrogance to consider our species the crown jewel of life.

I think it would be pessimistic to think otherwise. We are the only animal that tames other animals.

originally posted by: Phage

We are animals.

Yes but we are special in that we have the ability to override our animal nature with rationality.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
If Jesus was human, how could he also be a stick or stone

"...did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:40)

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Really, you want to argue my opinion with me, based on your opinion, your belief
Did you not read my comments

I thought it was quite clear that I was pointing out that the article you linked didn't really back your claim up and even if it did, it was not true.

BTW, I am a christian, I have a different opinion, I can accept you have an opinion, no matter how flawed I think it is and you are welcome to that opinion.

I was a christian so I have an idea of what your opinion is. My critique of your opinion isn't directly of your faith but of your opinion of what is proof. It isn't based on my opinion but on what constitues proof in this day and age.

I can offer no proof of what I believe to be true which is why I don't go around making threads about it being proven or even "proven".

a reply to: Raggedyman

I also know that you have no interest in knowing anything about it either

we have something in common regarding your attitude to evolution science.

a reply to: cooperton

I think it would be pessimistic to think otherwise. We are the only animal that tames other animals.

yet in the end, we all go in a hole in the ground. whats left after that? a pile of molecules? we can tame animals, yes, but we cant tame physics or chemistry or biology.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

we are also the only animal that has ever committed genocide over something other than food and territory.

We have done atrocious things with our free will, but we have free will nonetheless. The fact that we have such complex emotions and philosophies (whether they be Good or Bad) is another indicator that we are something special.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

we are also the only animal that has ever committed genocide over something other than food and territory.

We have done atrocious things with our free will, but we have free will nonetheless. The fact that we have such complex emotions and philosophies (whether they be Good or Bad) is another indicator that we are something special.

complex philosophies are a product of complex language, and language doesnt make us special. perhaps we are less intelligent than you think for being unable to understand the languages of our fellow creatures. they have quite a lot to say.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

complex philosophies are a product of complex language, and language doesnt make us special. perhaps we are less intelligent than you think for being unable to understand the languages of our fellow creatures. they have quite a lot to say.

Surely the animals are mourning what the kings of the earth have done to their home.

But, emotions and Rationality don't need language to exist. Rather, language can be used to describe and share emotions and rationality. Energy = mass x the speed of light^2 does not need language to remain true.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

yet in the end, we all go in a hole in the ground. whats left after that? a pile of molecules? we can tame animals, yes, but we cant tame physics or chemistry or biology.

Perhaps our bodies return to dust, but that which animated the body perpetuates and continues in the manner in which it left the body - Good or Bad.

I see that you see the futility in devoting life to things of the body - do not store up treasures on earth, but seek treasures of the soul; virtue, love, etc.

a reply to: cooperton

Surely the animals are mourning what the kings of the earth have done to their home.

we are no more kings than the dinosaurs were.

But, emotions and Rationality don't need language to exist. Rather, language can be used to describe and share emotions and rationality. Energy = mass x the speed of light^2 does not need language to remain true.

why do you lump emotions and rationality together? as shakespeare would tell you, love and logic keep little company these days.

Perhaps our bodies return to dust, but that which animated the body perpetuates and continues in the manner in which it left the body - Good or Bad.

I see that you see the futility in devoting life to things of the body - do not store up treasures on earth, but seek treasures of the soul; virtue, love, etc.

we dont yet know exactly what animates the body, aside from chemistry. what you know is that you have a deep appreciation for your emotional relationship with existence, and that is well for you. but it is not science.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

we are no more kings than the dinosaurs were.

Ahh yes, Behemoth. The Chief of the Creations of God:

Job 40

15Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it...

why do you lump emotions and rationality together? as shakespeare would tell you, love and logic keep little company these days.

Love and logic - the yin and yang of understanding. Love without rationality is whimsical, rationality without love is sterile.

we dont yet know exactly what animates the body, aside from chemistry. what you know is that you have a deep appreciation for your emotional relationship with existence, and that is well for you. but it is not science.

The Body Electric (pdf) by Robert Becker is a great read. He discusses neurophysiology and the "elan vital" (life force).

a reply to: cooperton

Ahh yes, Behemoth. The Chief of the Creations of God:

Job 40

15Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it...

more likely a member of the bovine family. the tail bit was an error in translation, though much more family friendly as a result.

Love and logic - the yin and yang of understanding. Love without rationality is whimsical, rationality without love is sterile.

whimsical. an excellent word for most variations of the intelligent design hypothesis. and i think the word is shrewd, not sterile. particularly given how science has solved so many infertility problems.

The Body Electric (pdf) by Robert Becker is a great read. He discusses neurophysiology and the "elan vital" (life force).

Élan vital was coined by French philosopher Henri Bergson in his 1907 book Creative Evolution, in which he addresses the question of self-organisation and spontaneous morphogenesis of things in an increasingly complex manner. Elan vital was translated in the English edition as "vital impetus", but is usually translated by his detractors as "vital force". It is a hypothetical explanation for evolution and development of organisms, which Bergson linked closely with consciousness - with the intuitive perception of experience and the flow of inner time.

hypothetical. not even theoretical.