Freedom comes with obligation

originally posted by: Mrgone
"a reply to: [post=20643345]PanPiper[/post

"Im born in a western culture,"

I can tell. You're first word is misspelled. Definitely taught in a western school.

* speaking from experience

and how your first sentence goes without the apostrophe is "you are first word is misspelled" it should be "your first word is misspelled.

if you are gonna be a grammer nazi at least lead by example

a reply to: grainofsand

Well, doesnt quite work that way, Emperor Constantine built a sustainable society, and it wasnt cause of how they looked, smelt.. It came down to, people not willing to work.. India had a functioning system for an extremely long time, it worked cause it was a cast system..

You call me misty and romantic, yet you live in the victorian ideals.. ? Doesnt it seem a bit weird?

a reply to: PanPiper

There's always the hardest gang in town and I'll pseudo conform with whichever biggest gang it is.
Just the same as I've done all my life, note pseudo conform, that is my freedom.




...but there's always the hardest gang in town.

a reply to: grainofsand

The hardest gang always end up dead, something history always show..

originally posted by: PanPiper
a reply to: grainofsand

The hardest gang always end up dead, something history always show..

So what?
How does that counter or offer interesting debate to anything I've posted in this thread?

I think a better way to put it is that freedom comes with responsibility. Obligation implies that others have claims on you. Responsibility is your personal purview and under your control.

In a society we all have our various responsibilities to ourselves and each other and when we carry those out it is what makes society work. However, those are our own and we claim ownership of them.

Putting freedom and obligation together in the same sentence is oxymoronic, but you can very much freedom and responsibility in the same sentence.

Freedom comes with responsibility.

The Responsibility to preserve liberty for future generations.

The Responsibility to fight for your rights and that of your neighbors whenever they are threatened.

The Responsibility to be appreciative of the blessings of liberty and to ensure that same sense of appreciation is carried on to future generations.

Obligations and qualifiers aren't freedom.

I will say that I am grateful to have been born in the US. It could have been much much muuuuuuch worse. For whatever reason in whatever world I was born here in this country and for that I will always be lucky. (yeah yeah we make our own luck but you get what I mean.) I could have been born a female where they believe in female genital mutilation. I could have been born a male but to an apostate family in the Middle East and be continuously hunted for my beliefs. Instead I am here.

If we want to bring the subject of freedom in, I will say that nothing is ever free. Everything has a price. Every action has a consequence, even in an Anarchist state. Why? Because within each human there hides emotions and emotions are an enslavement all their own. Emotions breed our ideas towards things since even before we knew what language was. We knew when we ate a certain food, it made us satisfied and thus upon seeing said feed we were happy. We knew that when we saw a wild cat, it meant danger. For these reasons we will never be able to live in an Anarchist state because if there are no rules and emotions run free, then the chaos that would ensue would surely wipe out existence entirely. The purpose of life is to create, sustain and improve the quality of life so who are we to say that the ideal situation would be to have no laws? Even nature has laws....

I think what the OP is trying to say is that he believes that in order to maintain our level of human rights, we must adhere to our due diligence and participate in sustaining and improving our quality of life as a people of a nation.

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

But the only person you truly control is yourself.

The idea that society imposes obligations and controls on your is false. That buys in to an idea that others control you and force you to act. That is simply not true. If it were, then no one would ever act beyond the bonds of society which is demonstrably false. People can and do rebel all the time. Why? Because we do not have obligations imposed from the outside; we have instead responsibilities which we can choose to either uphold or ignore as we decide.

a reply to: ketsuko

It is not so much an idea that is imposed. An idea implies that we would be able to "freely" ignore that. In fact, there are lawsand a law does have consequences that the other party chooses to enforce or ignore. If you do not get caught you are not punished but I know I would do jail time if I got caught hurling a kilo of coc aine over the boarder of mexico.

I had no control over being born as I am therefor how much control do I really have? There are people out there who have no control over themselves. I understand this subject to be subjective but I am speaking in general terms in my previous comment. I can demonstrate control because, for me, it is a choice but for others it is not.

Every thought that has ever crept into our head has come from somewhere, not completely fabricated by our own will. Even in a dream state the brain is unable to produce a face that it has not seen before (hence why sometimes you have dreams of people with no faces) so how free are we really? Is this the part where we bring in the free will argument? I have no idea. All I know is that everything comes from something that was previously here before. You may take 2 ideas and put them together but that does not make it original, that makes it a creation using previous materials...but not original.

And at this point I have derailed myself and I am spiraling off topic... carry on lol

a reply to: Metallicus
So noted, nothing wrong with being patriotic, and you are correct. The students in the bus are fine, its the bus driver that's !@*&$%!'d up.

The greatest form of patriotism IS dissent.


I digress, Freedom is something we are born with, not given and taken away like a child with a toy.

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

This is dabbling into the question of the chicken or the egg. If thats the case then allow me to retort.

Our minds are programmed from birth by our surroundings. Say there was nothing there to do that. We'd be stumbling humans experiencing everything and formulating our own sense of good, bad, and of course the limitations to physical freedom.

Mental freedom is a whole other monster. In which case we trap ourselves in the conscious mind to gain control of the sub-conscious. Its how we slow things down to process new information. Ha nothing to do with freedom. More with choices.

a reply to: BooCrackers

Yes but we can only make choices based on our knowledge and our knowledge is subjective due to surroundings and our surroundings are delighted by others making their choices and so on

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

rrrrrrriiiiiigggghhhhhhht

I can see where that'd be confusing...........what were we talking about?