Is this the end of the "special relationship" ?

a reply to: schuyler

So it's OK for Brits to weigh in on America's election, but it's not OK for Obama to weigh in about yours.

Do you understand the idiocracy of your statement? Sorry if I sound a little harsh, but please do read on.

We have an allied vested interest in American presidency, yes. We do not say who you should vote for, people have opinions in the UK just as they do in the USA of who they would think the better candidate would be.

The USA deals in a lot of overseas affairs boasting a large navy and airforce, which is good. They are trusted as international mediators for the most part. Thus a lot of countries who are part of NATO would have a vested interest in who controls such power.

The UK however does not send the priminister to it's allies to inform them that if they back out of the EU they will be at the bottom of the list for a trade deal - this is a folly statement either way given the amount of investment both countries have together.

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That aside another note of the matter. The UK has no place in a destabilising europe. Europe is France, Germany and the United Kingdom holding the majority of the cards. When someone removes the cards at the bottom the cards at the top must replace them. It is financially better for everyone to back down, reconsolidate their losses and reform.

You cannot have an economic alliance based on the top few propping up the rest.

originally posted by: 83Liberty

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Forget the polls and look at what the bookmakers are suggesting, as they are very rarely wrong.

At the moment the remain is 1/3 and the leave is 11/4. It does vary across the various companies, but at the moment they feel remain is odds on favourite.

I wouldn't say the bookies are very rarely wrong considering the last election they had a Conservatives majority at around 8/1. Bookies change their odds based on how much money is being placed on each bet. Considering bets on Remain have been consistently higher for months now, I would expect Remain to be the huge favourites from the bookies.

This story where a man placed £30k on a Conservatives majority proves my point...

Following the punt, the bookies cut the odds of the Tories to 6/1, while the odds of no party forming a majority were reduced from 10/1 to 8/1.

I think the GE was more difficult to forecast, but even then with the Tories at 8/1 and no overall majority, which the polls were suggesting, at 10/1, they still made the Tories slight favourites.

Of course, I understand how bookies work and if more people are placing bets on a remain, this is an indication of how people intend to vote.

I hope they get taken to the cleaners of course, but as it stands at this time, it appears nobody is willing to back £30,000 on a Brexit.

originally posted by: Americanpatriot123
There never should of been ANY special relationship!

Relatation implies "equals! and the UK is not a Equal to the USA!

UK is a subservient vassal of the USA.
That how it should be under nature and god.

Ha ha ha ha.

Loving it.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: 83Liberty
Why do you not read and comprehend all the evidence that proves that the EU is not only undemocratic but ANTI democratic?!

I'm actually not a big fan of the EU either, but it is by far to be preferred over the old situation. I have lived long enough to have vivid recollections of those "good" old days.

Even for a simple citizen, the EU has brought great achievements. In 1960 a simple journey from my place to Spain involved having to change money 3 times (guilders to Belgian francs, Belgian francs to French francs and finally French francs to peseta's). You'd be paying for all those transactions and in effect loose at least 10 percent of your money to these money-sharks - each time. Also, it involved having to wait for hours sometimes, in a hot car, until you finally were allowed to pass the border. Imported goods were very expensive, e.g. good French wine or good Spanish olives were rare - and expensive. There was no default EU language, like we have now (English). Smuggling of liquor and cigarettes was on the order of the day. Obtaining goods from another nation involved a lot of import- and export documents to be signed and processed and invariably every nation involved in the deal wanted to be payed taxes. England was poor - very poor. If you don't believe me: this is a picture of a family in Birmingham, in 1960:

After joining the EU and adoptation of various EU standards, poverty started to decline rapldly. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Financially, things only started to pick up in the 60s you could probably find more pics of families doing well than badly to be fair.

In the last few years working families have had to rely on food banks like never before thanks to EU membership so don't try and pretend that it's all about making everyone rich.



Re your currency point, we aren't part of the euro so nothing will change.

a reply to: SprocketUK

I'll take any unknown challenges in the event we vote to leave the EU.
My primary reason for wishing to leave is supremacy of state and sovereignty.

I didn't like living in my family home when I was 16 so I 'ran-away' a couple of hundred miles, sleeping rough from January to May until I could get a place to live/job/happy future. I believed in myself, even though I left with only a backpack with spare clothes and had no real plan. My wish for self determination, regardless of the potential risks, far outweighed my wish to be ruled in the family home I left.

I believe in The UK, and my wish for our country to achieve self determination again far outweighs my wish for the UK to be ruled by the EU family.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

It was technology and trade that has improved our lives not the EU.
If we Leave the EU we will still trade within the EU.

You can't just keep comparing how good the EU was back then to what it is now.

Europe doesn't need the EU anymore, it's gone too far, it can't even reform itself.
Their only solutions to problems is yet more EU power/money grabs from it's member states.

It needs breaking apart so the people of Europe can have their democracy back again.

a reply to: 83Liberty

The introduction of a single currency was the death knell for the E.U.

I remember the Treasury at the time suggesting that we could be worse off for not joining. How did that go?

I just watched the latest BBC interview with Obama, 5 or 10 years before the US will strike a trade deal with the UK, less influence in the world...blah.
Does he really think that US businesses will accept a government imposed situation that kills trade with UK businesses? Really?

Absolute bull# and he knows it. Prick.

last i read they were thinking of combining the dutch and german arms forces together to buld a new reich, but people often forget the US connection to the nazis because it was george bush senior that referenced to a 1000 points of illumination when referencing working together with the germans in a new world order, as a former freemason this means as the bible calls a thouand years of satan, thouand year reich, a thousand incarnations of vishnu and so on a so fourth. As for the topic Obama of course would be pro-eu because its an American idea!

originally posted by: grainofsand
I believe in The UK, and my wish for our country to achieve self determination again far outweighs my wish for the UK to be ruled by the EU family.

Self determination. Well, I can't be against THAT, of course

But where does it stop? Your country itself consists of subnations, e.g. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Shouldn't they be independent too, then? Actually, London is the most thriving, wealthy part of the UK, shouldn't London be allowed to achieve self determination too, instead of being ruled by the UK family? Come to think of it, The City might well require to have self-determination - after all, isn't most of the money made there, why should they be ruled by London, let alone the UK family?

Nigel Farage makes a couple of good points on Mr Obama's intervention and reasons behind it.

One of the few things I agree with Farage on.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: 83Liberty

The introduction of a single currency was the death knell for the E.U.

I remember the Treasury at the time suggesting that we could be worse off for not joining. How did that go?

Well, actuallly, the Euro and the Pound are now at roughly the same exchange rate as they were in 1995, when the Euro was introduced. In the meantime, we've seen periods in which the pound had a much higher value, which made your products more expensive and so you sold less to the continent - and periods in which the pound had a lower value and your exports increased.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Yeah, I'd be happy with a confederation of constituent parts of the UK working together as a family of sorts, in any mutually agreeable form.
We've done it for many hundreds of years because we have so many shared interests on these islands.

Any form of sovereign government in the islands of UK and/or even the Republic of Ireland would be my preferred choice over EU government.
Good suggestion

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Any form of sovereign government in the islands of UK and/or even the Republic of Ireland would be my preferred choice over EU government.
Good suggestion

Thank you. But why limit it to the Islands?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Any form of sovereign government in the islands of UK and/or even the Republic of Ireland would be my preferred choice over EU government.
Good suggestion

Thank you. But why limit it to the Islands?

For obvious reasons that we have been intimately involved with each other for thousands of years and share cultural/social/political/etc interests much more than we do with continental Europe.

Why would you even question that?

Republic of Ireland citizens have been free to live/work in the UK way before the UK even joined the EU.
These islands are a unique little family in our part of Europe, and yeah, I'd vote for the UK assisting Ireland if they thought the same and wished to leave the EU, every time.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Thank you for making the argument to leave so clear.

That's exactly the reason many of us want to leave the EU - everyone of the UK's MEP's could vote against a proposed law as they feel it may be detrimental to the BRITISH people yet it can still get imposed upon the UK.
The EU is actively seeking legislation that will give the EU even more power over the constituent nations representative bodies.

It is this transferal of sovereignty that we primarily oppose.

We voted for membership of a Free Trade Association, not political unity.

Personally I can see the advantages of a joint defence policy and even joint foreign policies.
But the Parliament of The United Kingdom must be the ultimate authority on UK domestic issues and I can not support further erosion of UK sovereignty.

Now as for Obama.
We would be naïve if we thought any BREXIT will not affect our current relationships with our European partners and the likes of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.
And their elected leaders must also be expected to try to look after their own national interests.
Only an idiot would think Obama and the US administration wouldn't have a stake in and opinion on this.

I understand the knee jerk reactions against Obama but I think anyone who has more than a passing interest in the referendum should at least consider what he and others have to say.

To make a truly informed decision one must consider all points of view.

But, and this is a big BUT, Obama seems to have overstretched the mark here and gone beyond giving both his personal opinion and that of the USA in general.
He does seem to have used slightly threatening terms and tone....and the natural reaction is to tell him go # himself and keep the # out of our business.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: 83Liberty

The introduction of a single currency was the death knell for the E.U.

I remember the Treasury at the time suggesting that we could be worse off for not joining. How did that go?

Well, actuallly, the Euro and the Pound are now at roughly the same exchange rate as they were in 1995, when the Euro was introduced. In the meantime, we've seen periods in which the pound had a much higher value, which made your products more expensive and so you sold less to the continent - and periods in which the pound had a lower value and your exports increased.

I was referring to the mess that the Eurozone is in, i.e the various economies attempting to survive under the single currency, whilst the economic powerhouse makes billions off the bailout loans, whether the loans are paid back or defaulted on.

Either way Obama can # off with his propaganda scripted interviews with Camerons mouthpiece which is the BBC.
I think more people will vote out now because he acted like he was the president of Brits. All I've heard today in real life is people asking 'who does that prick think he is' lol

Does anyone actually believe this vote will make a difference either way? The outcome will be, as it always is, the one that the fat cats want.

originally posted by: sg1642
Does anyone actually believe this vote will make a difference either way? The outcome will be, as it always is, the one that the fat cats want.

I do.
If a majority vote leave then leave it will be.
I accept democratic process though so if it happens I'm unlikely to be whining like Scot's nationalists after they lost their referendum.