Is this the end of the "special relationship" ?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Thank you for making the argument to leave so clear.

I'm here to help

That's exactly the reason many of us want to leave the EU - everyone of the UK's MEP's could vote against a proposed law as they feel it may be detrimental to the BRITISH people yet it can still get imposed upon the UK.

Yes, that's democracy. The same goes for the Welsh in the UK: if all the Welsh would vote against some law, but the rest of the UK in favour of it, the Welsh would not have much choice and accept that Law.

The EU is actively seeking legislation that will give the EU even more power over the constituent nations representative bodies.

You are part of the EU like you are part of the UK. If you disagree with something, you have plenty of means to discuss this with others, to lobby, engage in political debate - actually, that's what the UK has done ever since it became a member. And hence, the UK has special rights, does not have to adhere to all of the EU policies, still has the pound, still wants to see my passport etc.

It is this transferal of sovereignty that we primarily oppose.

I have great sympathy for those that say that the EU should leave as much as possible to the local population, actually: I'd like to see an EU directive that says so

Sovereignty of nations .. well, given the rapid integration of our worlds' peoples, it is fair to predict that in 100 years nobody will belong to a nation anymore - for lack of nations. Our young already loose the notion of "nations" - they communicate with huge groups of people from all over the world. Their "nations" are more or less interest groups, and their culture is the culture they seek out themselves, not the culture of the land they live in.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

The UK may mostly reside on islands, but culturally, sociologically and even politically it's just a normal part of Europe. Always has been and hence should remain in the union.

I don't know if you've ever spent any time in the UK but if you had then you would know that culturally, sociologically and politically the UK has been, and still is, considerably different to continental Europe.

Of course we share some traits, but by and large the people of The British Isles are distinctly different to continentals.

That is one of the reasons we have constantly been at loggerheads with the most powerful European nations for literally hundreds of years.

We all hope that we have developed enough to have left those war ravaged times behind us and it's one of the reasons why we recognise the need and benefits of working closely with our European neighbours....but we simply don't want political union.

You are obviously an intelligent and reasoned individual, surely you can understand our dislike of the bloated centralised government in Brussels that seeks authority over the national representative bodies?

As a Dutchman why would you want the EU determining domestic Dutch policies?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I'm here to

I think its fair to say you give a good, alternative viewpoint to that of us many here have and for that I am appreciative.

Yes, that's democracy. The same goes for the Welsh in the UK: if all the Welsh would vote against some law, but the rest of the UK in favour of it, the Welsh would not have much choice and accept that Law.

But here in the UK we are heading towards more devolved power away from the centralised government in Westminster.
Like many on here my preferred option would be increased devolved power to all the regions of the UK, and even The Republic of Ireland if they wished, within some sort of Federal framework - essentially more localised power and less for the central government.

The EU is heading in exactly the opposite direction - increased central power and reduced power to the regions.

You are part of the EU like you are part of the UK.

But that is the very essence of the referendum - many of us don't want to be part of the EU in its current manifestation and this is our opportunity to express our Right to Self-Determination.

If you disagree with something, you have plenty of means to discuss this with others, to lobby, engage in political debate - actually, that's what the UK has done ever since it became a member. And hence, the UK has special rights, does not have to adhere to all of the EU policies, still has the pound, still wants to see my passport etc.

I understand all that - but we don't want political union, it's really that simple.

I have great sympathy for those that say that the EU should leave as much as possible to the local population, actually: I'd like to see an EU directive that says so

But with the direction the EU is taking, and their stated aim of increased political union there is absolutely no realistic chance that this is going to happen for quite some time to come.
Devolved power to the regions is the exact opposite to what the EU bureaucrats want.

Sovereignty of nations .. well, given the rapid integration of our worlds' peoples, it is fair to predict that in 100 years nobody will belong to a nation anymore - for lack of nations. Our young already loose the notion of "nations" - they communicate with huge groups of people from all over the world. Their "nations" are more or less interest groups, and their culture is the culture they seek out themselves, not the culture of the land they live in.

Quite an astute point.

Who knows what our sons / daughters, (and in my case grandchildren), will think of the world we leave them?

All I can do is what I think is best in the here and now.

And at present I personally think the best thing we can do here in the UK for our children etc is to leave the EU and seek our own path whilst remaining friends with our friends on the continent.
Because we want to re-assert our own independence and sovereignty does not mean that we have any enmity or dislike of continental Europeans.
Quite the opposite......but, and apologies for labouring the point, we simply don't want political union.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: sg1642

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: sg1642
Does anyone actually believe this vote will make a difference either way? The outcome will be, as it always is, the one that the fat cats want.

I do.
If a majority vote leave then leave it will be.
I accept democratic process though so if it happens I'm unlikely to be whining like Scot's nationalists after they lost their referendum.

Your average Joe accepts democratic process I just hope the idiots who are supposed to run this country and the people with the money who stand behind them do too.

The Bilderberg Group may expel Cameron and Osborne if there is a Brexit.

I see another Bilderberger has expressed her opinion about the U.K remaining in the E.U.


www.independent.co.uk...

If she wants us to stay then must be a good idea to leave then!

Can't say anyone in their right mind could disagree.

Nice example of playing the person, not the ball.

When the person is kwon for lying, corruption and being a pawn of the bankers and elite I will take that person into account when they voice a "opinion".

originally posted by: Freeborn

I don't know if you've ever spent any time in the UK but if you had then you would know that culturally, sociologically and politically the UK has been, and still is, considerably different to continental Europe.

Actually, I have spent time in the UK, and really, the differences are not that big. McDonalds is everywhere

But my tongue-in-cheek remark bears on a deeper insight: Europe is rapidly integrating in a world-wide culture, driven by corporatism. I'm not really happy with that as way too much is being decided on by undemocratic corporations, which simply are there to make as much money as they can whilst producing just good enough goods. There should be strong, international opposition to that, opposition that represents the needs of the general public - and the EU migh well take that role in Europe.

Of course we share some traits, but by and large the people of The British Isles are distinctly different to continentals.

We all sleep, play, eat, drink, love, admire, hope, learn, pray and cry alike. Sure, there are minor differences, but when in the UK I feel quite at home and I never encountered something that alienated me. Minor differences, thats all I've ever seen - comparable to the ones found between the Dutch that live in the North and the Dutch that live in the South. That's all, really.

You are obviously an intelligent and reasoned individual,

Obviously

surely you can understand our dislike of the bloated centralised government in Brussels that seeks authority over the national representative bodies?

Yes, I can. I am a staff member of the socialist party in my country. Dutch socialists are firmly opposed to a centralised EU government and like you feel that it would be much better to decrease the influence of the EU. I partially agree with them, but I'm also a realist: it's not all bad, actually many things are great. So, should we reform the union? I'd say: yes. Should we leave it? I'd say: no.

As a Dutchman why would you want the EU determining domestic Dutch policies?

Actually, my Dutch nationality is not that important to me, it's but one of the many identities I recognise and associate with. Yes, I'm Dutch (I actually run an old Dutch windmill, you can't get much more Dutch than that, methinks). But I'm also a teacher. And a student. A fortean. A scientist. A roleplayer. A consultant. Father. Partner. More. All those roles have their own identity and own subculture and when I'm in one of those roles, I will act accordingly - but always in such a manner that I don't do anything that might hurt me in one of my other roles.

Nations actually haven't that much to do with it: I feel just as much at ease in Germany, France, Spain, the US or the UK. And isn't ATS living proof how much we all have in common, despite our differences?

You ask how I feel about others determining laws for me - well, I don't want anybody to determine any laws for me, of course. Though in practice a socialist, I'm actually an anarchist, and anarchists believe it should be self-explanatory to all what proper behaviour is and what is not. Alas, we're not that enlightened yet. Given that fact, I'd rather have One Law then Two, and rather have it apply to all instead to just a subgroup.

Hence my firm belief is that IFF we still have to have "nations" it rather better be One nation - humanity. And if we can't have One nation, than at least as less as we can - so I'm not opposed to the EU, nor to the establishment of Universal Laws.

In short: we need unity, So I'm in favour of the EU. I am also firmly opposed to any party that simply parachutes laws on people, hence I believe the EU should be reformed. Leaving the EU will only diminish the number of people that think like me (like many Brits) hence I believe you should vote to stay in.

Reforms can't be done from the outside.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: sg1642

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: sg1642
Does anyone actually believe this vote will make a difference either way? The outcome will be, as it always is, the one that the fat cats want.

I do.
If a majority vote leave then leave it will be.
I accept democratic process though so if it happens I'm unlikely to be whining like Scot's nationalists after they lost their referendum.

Your average Joe accepts democratic process I just hope the idiots who are supposed to run this country and the people with the money who stand behind them do too.

The Bilderberg Group may expel Cameron and Osborne if there is a Brexit.

I see another Bilderberger has expressed her opinion about the U.K remaining in the E.U.


www.independent.co.uk...

If she wants us to stay then must be a good idea to leave then!

Can't say anyone in their right mind could disagree.

Nice example of playing the person, not the ball.

You clearly don't understand the concept do you? Gawd.

Yes, the comment you were responding to was that if Hilary Clinton is against vote leave then leaving is the 'good idea' - there cannot be a much clearer example of playing the person not the ball. Oh dear, I think some people are getting a bit emotional - this is starting to make the Scottish referendum talk on here look more and more sensible.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: sg1642

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: sg1642
Does anyone actually believe this vote will make a difference either way? The outcome will be, as it always is, the one that the fat cats want.

I do.
If a majority vote leave then leave it will be.
I accept democratic process though so if it happens I'm unlikely to be whining like Scot's nationalists after they lost their referendum.

Your average Joe accepts democratic process I just hope the idiots who are supposed to run this country and the people with the money who stand behind them do too.

The Bilderberg Group may expel Cameron and Osborne if there is a Brexit.

I see another Bilderberger has expressed her opinion about the U.K remaining in the E.U.


www.independent.co.uk...

If she wants us to stay then must be a good idea to leave then!

Can't say anyone in their right mind could disagree.

Nice example of playing the person, not the ball.

When the person is kwon for lying, corruption and being a pawn of the bankers and elite I will take that person into account when they voice a "opinion".

Well if you must consider targeting the person not the ball then I assume you are an ardent admirer of Johnson, Gove, Dunan-Smith etc. That's fine, all upstanding people I'm sure. But it's still not the point. It doesn't give a compelling, concrete reason to leave that can be verified by independent sources, so at the moment it's individual opinions from what I can see.

Last night, on the BBC news channel I watched Peter Lilley (pro leave) not only stating that we would get all the trade deals we want, but that those with the EU would more than likely be 'free trade' - he had nothing to actually back that up, or any reason to explain why that would be the case. That is nothing more than an assumption with nothing to back it up at all and is the frustrating thing watching the leave campaign continuously doing that.

No, you stated this earlier:

Oh, we also still wouldn't have control of the borders (too many other treaties already signed, not simply just EU).

Note the key words, control of the borders.
I stated that your comment was factually incorrect and asked you to present these treaties to confirm your assertion, then you reply below with rubbish about the UN Refugee convention...

originally posted by: Flavian
Okey dokey,

to name just 2......

1951 UN Refugee Convention.

1967 UN Protocol ammendment.

With these 2 alone, the UK has a choice - it can either abide by the rules it is signed up to or it can withdraw from those rules. However if it withdraws, it would face the same limitations (migrants gathering to get to the UK) without any real desire by the EU nations to do Britain any favours.

And no, that wouldn't mean those EU nations threatening Britain, more that it would not be a priority concern for them. Obviously, we could then simply agree migrants admittance and simply send them straight back (thereby ignoring our UN obligations) but the back drop would be our nation trying to get decent trade deals, etc around the world whilst riding roughshod over International Law regarding migrants. How do you think trade deals would go with the AU (African Union) for example, whilst breaking international law regarding african migrants?

The Leave camp need to understand there would be inevitable consequences, not out of threats but simply because our standing would be much lower and we wouldn't have as much to offer as the much larger single trading bloc.

Why are you bringing refugees into it? We were signed up to that convention before we even joined the EEC. Most countries in the world are, and they assert controls at their borders.
Absolute fail fella, try again, go on.

You said "Oh, we also still wouldn't have control of the borders (too many other treaties already signed, not simply just EU)." and I said you are factually incorrect. What an absolute sideline bringing refugees into the discussion.
Your initial comment was wrong you just can't admit it.

IF the UK leaves the EU then it will have full legal control over it's borders again regarding who is allowed in or not, same as every other country in the world outside of the EU.
Unlucky fella, you were badly factually incorrect.
Refugees have nothing to do with that absolute fact.

a reply to: grainofsand

If we did have control of our borders, we could perhaps welcome even more real refugees into our country than we currently do.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
a reply to: grainofsand

If we did have control of our borders, we could perhaps welcome even more real refugees into our country than we currently do.

True, I'd be happy with that, I certainly think we should be taking more UN confirmed refugees in the UK.
The current strategy of taking them from the UN camps is excellent as far as I see things, just we aren't taking enough.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Your assertion that there is no difference between the UK and EU countries....

Here is one very important difference and a source of much ire when it comes to working together.
The difference between the legal structure.
www.diffen.com...

As you can see, the UK common law system is often at odds with the Roman system continentals favour.

To condense and simplify, in general Common law allows anything not specifically prohibited, while Roman law prohibits anything not specifically permitted.


Quite a difference.


Also, you are falling into the trap of thinking because we want out of the EU, that we dislike Europe and Europeans.
That's utterly wrong.

As for "that's democracy " when it comes to the EU. ..The EU plainly isn't democracy since the people with the most power are immune from censure by the electorate.

Getting onto you thinking it's ok to never have your voice heard, well, you are Dutch, so used to it. US Brits are not and don't want to be.


This lack of democratic accountability is what leads to the formation of groups such as the IRA and ETA.

You really want to see the rise of the British National Army? Because denying people their franchise will inevitably lead to something like that.

I sort of get the feeling there's a contingent among the world's powerful that would like to see the EU become basically another United States, with each country representing more a state or province than an independent country.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
It's no one's business but ours.

I hope you don't weigh in on US politics or politicians :0

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ForteanOrg
As you can see, the UK common law system is often at odds with the Roman system continentals favour.

To condense and simplify, in general Common law allows anything not specifically prohibited, while Roman law prohibits anything not specifically permitted.

Quite a difference.

Isn't it the the same with our legal system when we are currently innocent until proven guilty, rather than guilty until proven innocent?

originally posted by: Dfairlite

originally posted by: SprocketUK
It's no one's business but ours.

I hope you don't weigh in on US politics or politicians :0

Should I ever become head of state, you can take it to the bank that I'll keep my gob shut until you've had your election.





Then I'll tell you how you shoulda voted for the other candidate

a reply to: 83Liberty

It's a bit more nebulous than that.
In common law, each side puts their case, in roman law, the judge does the investigation and much of the cross examination.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Should I ever become head of state, you can take it to the bank that I'll keep my gob shut until you've had your election.

Nah, if your mates and social circles as head of state thought otherwise you'd do as you were told...just as I imagine Obama did.

a reply to: grainofsand

You don't know my mates...If any of them ever rise to be pillars of society we will be living in a Mad Max dystopia. ..lmao

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Here is one very important difference and a source of much ire when it comes to working together.
The difference between the legal structure.

If you do what I do - consultant - you need to have at least a rudimentary insight in these matters. But though the legal systems are somewhat different in structure, they actually are quite similar in purpose: to correct the ones that misbehave against the state (Criminal Courts) and solve disputes between citizens (Civil Courts).

As you can see, the UK common law system is often at odds with the Roman system continentals favour.

Frankly, whole years have passed without me hearing anyone exclaim "Cor blimey - that's right innit? TWO frigging legal systems? Now, that settles it then, I'll vote out!"

Anyway, I wouldn't say "at odds". It's similar to driving on the left side of the road: you wouldn't do that in my country, but it's relatively easy to adopt to when you need to visit the UK vice versa.

To condense and simplify, in general Common law allows anything not specifically prohibited, while Roman law prohibits anything not specifically permitted.

Now, really.. no. In both systems, anything that is not prohibited is permitted. The method used to determine if something is permitted differs, however: continental law is based on legal codes, and judges apply those codes to establish if a person is guilty or not. British Law is not really codified, but instead relies on precedent. Judges in England are far more important in the decision making process than in my country, and we do not have juries, for example.

Also, you are falling into the trap of thinking because we want out of the EU, that we dislike Europe and Europeans. That's utterly wrong.

Could have fooled me

As for "that's democracy " when it comes to the EU. ..The EU plainly isn't democracy since the people with the most power are immune from censure by the electorate.

That's not unlike the situation in the UK.

Getting onto you thinking it's ok to never have your voice heard, well, you are Dutch, so used to it. US Brits are not and don't want to be.

Dunno - Dutch people aren't exactly known for obedience to governments. We had legal hookers long before the Brits. We had legal pot, long before the Brits. We had legal abortions, accepted homosexuals - long before the Brits. Mostly by simply massively ignoring the Laws we commonly found absurd. So, I believe we get our voices heard. But it's true we are quite cooperative - we must be in our small, densely populated country, especially because much of it lays below sealevel. If we'd unable to cooperate, we'd drown..

This lack of democratic accountability is what leads to the formation of groups such as the IRA and ETA.

Wherever there are governments - there is opposition. Whenever the opposition is not heard, not allowed to speak out freely - it will go underground and often become violent. We have had a few sad examples in our country too. I also vividly recall the Ulster wars, and hope we all learned a lesson from that.

From my own experience, Britain, while technically a European country, really is a very different bird from the rest of Europe for a number of reasons. There is a definite, noticeable transition when crossing the Channel. Whereas, say, when traveling from one European country to another, beyond possibly a different language spoken, transitions across borders were less noticeable.

My ex, who is British, and I, moved from the UK to Southern Spain and lived there for four years. I can honestly say, I really developed a dislike for the EU (The organization, not the European continent or it's individual people or nations) while living there. A good example showcasing the myriad of reasons why the EU is a dysfunctional joke: The Common Fisheries Policy. Economically and environmentally a complete disaster, in my opinion. Then of course, there is corruption and apathy in Brussels, and the lack of oversight in finances. The lack of enforcement amongst EU members who violate treaties and binding provisions. Countries that pick and choose what they follow.

I think it was a mistake when you broke off from the Old Commonwealth, though others disagree. A few of those old commonwealth partners, such as India, is where the future seems to be.