If you don't embrace change, you are racist and bigoted.

In a thread I tried to convey my opinion on HB2, the controversial bill enacted in NC. In all the conversation, it boiled down to, the new law, doesn't mention LGBT in anti-discrimination verbiage. It also doesn't mention how bad an idea it is to use your toaster in the shower. I can only hope we don't have an increase in death by electrification.

But in all the ranting and crying, I am left with a simple thought. My state is how it is because of the people that live here. North Carolina is a beautiful state, with many natural wonders. But the thing that usually draws people here is the southern charm of the people who make up the communities. Now there is no argument that many hold tight to old values, some of which aren't valued by most other, more progressive states. But that is part of the big picture.

If you want to get big city action, 24 hour entertainment, neon lights as far as the eye can see, I suggest you find somewhere other than small town NC. New York City might be a better choice. But in realty, nobody would be ignorant enough to come to small town NC looking for action such as that. So why would you come to NC, and expect the entire state to change it's ways overnight, then get angry when it doesn't happen?

Racism is ugly and needless, but, it still exists. It's not a south only thing, it's everywhere, but seemingly more noticeable in the south due to heritage I suppose. But it's come a long way even here. And it will continue to get better as newer generations evolve and take over where old firm mindsets used to preside. One of the many charms of the south, NC in particular is that change isn't ramrodded in, but brought about at a nice pace for all to absorb. If that's not your thing, again, there are other places much better suited to your wants and needs.

Point being, just because YOU think things are wrong, doesn't mean the rest of the population should change their way of thinking to accommodate you. I'm reminded of a saying from the Marine corps: Adapt, improvise, overcome. Nowhere do they suggest a temper tantrum until you get your way.

Always remember, if you are forced at gunpoint to live here, THAT is a crime and should be reported. If you come of your own free will and accord, you may expect a little push back to wanting everything to change the way you want.

I hear ya buddy!
I live in indiana and we still can't buy alcohol on Sundays unless it's at a restaurant.

But it's the same here, people just change slowly. Doesn't mean we are all racist homafobic jerks.

a reply to: network dude

If the rule of law was so important, then I'd ask why so many are for ignoring the rule of law on illegal immigration.

a reply to: network dude

So are you racist and/or bigoted?
I'm not.

a reply to: network dude

I think NC has a wide variety of people, Asheville being one of the most liberal places on the planet. HB2 was horribly implemented and is a reaction and understandably so, to people who believe their gender doesn't correspond to their brains. Now I'm open and as long as you don't hurt anyone, do what you want, but I'm still on the fence letting full grown men into the bathroom alone with females even more so if it was my daughter.

I believe we can find a solution without both sides throwing temper tantrums and name calling. Although, I highly doubt the public can act like grown ups

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: network dude

So are you racist and/or bigoted?
I'm not.

LOL, it depends on whom you ask I suppose. I sure don't self identify as that. I was brought up to believe we are all the same, I tried to tech my kids that we are all the same, and when I see racism openly displayed it makes me cringe. But then, I might be a bit biased with relation to that question, so my actions are the only thing you can judge me by.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: network dude

If the rule of law was so important, then I'd ask why so many are for ignoring the rule of law on illegal immigration.

Some laws aren't as lawful as others. Bwahahahahaha! I can't even type that with a straight face.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: network dude

I think NC has a wide variety of people, Asheville being one of the most liberal places on the planet. HB2 was horribly implemented and is a reaction and understandably so, to people who believe their gender doesn't correspond to their brains. Now I'm open and as long as you don't hurt anyone, do what you want, but I'm still on the fence letting full grown men into the bathroom alone with females even more so if it was my daughter.

I believe we can find a solution without both sides throwing temper tantrums and name calling. Although, I highly doubt the public can act like grown ups

I agree that all of this was done in haste and came across badly, regardless of the intent. But I know the kind of person Gov. McRory is. I cannot even begin to imagine his intent was to target any group, let alone set them up for abuse. Charlotte is trying to be progressive like Asheville, but you can't change the mindset of the people in a day. It just seems as if everyone is upset because there isn't very specific rules in place to define something that shouldn't need explaining in the first place. Treat everyone nice. Perhaps we need a law stating that, but I swear I was taught that long before I had any recourse to the law.

a reply to: DBCowboy

If the rule of law was so important, then I'd ask why so many are for ignoring the rule of law on illegal immigration.

Because the law makers are above the law? illegal aliens work a lot cheaper than above board citizens. The 'rule of law' favors the corporations that exploit them.

People should have the right to be as bigoted and homophobic as they want...Just don't be a crybaby when someone kicks the livin ++++ out of you!!!

You reap what you sow....

“I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington . . . I'm asking you to believe in yours." Barrack Obama.

Look where that got America.. Sometimes change isn't all its cracked up to be..

a reply to: network dude

The 'small' town environment is the way this country used to be, is supposed to be. Not the big city infrastructure where people are all packed together, living like ants.

In the big city authority is given over to the power that runs things, in the small town, the people themselves still run things. They decide whats good for them or not, the way it should be.

Don't let the outsiders get a toe hold in your planning commissions or town councils. Keep it local.

Edit: Those that sell out to get ahead should be tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail.

a reply to: network dude

I think you're continuing to ignore other aspects of HB 2, and over-simplifying it. If Charlotte had passed an ordinance saying only that TG folks can use the bathroom they identify with, and the state legislature had passed a bill saying only that TG folks can't do that, then I would say you're spot on and absolutely correct.

But there was much more to the ordinance than simply the bathroom bit, and there was much more to HB2 than simply countermanding the Charlotte ordinance.

Charlotte is exactly the kind of city you describe in your OP. The city council (and mayor, most of all) took a decent idea and tacked on something that is highly charged and rammed it through. The state reacted by doing the exact same thing. Dumbing it down to "it's a bathroom thing" and chalking it up to "southern charm" is, frankly, being willfully ignorant of the totality of circumstances.

a reply to: Shamrock6

the Charlotte law was the catalyst to all this, and it was, as I said, ramrodded through and not very popular as it was presented.

The Charlotte City Council passed an addition to its non-discrimination ordinance Monday night adding marital status, familial status, sexual orientation, and gender identity and gender expression to the list of protected characteristics under its non-discrimination law. But another piece of the ordinance removing a distinction that prohibits members of the opposite sex from using restrooms, shower rooms, bathhouses and similar facilities meant for the other gender may serve to invalidate the change under the state’s indecent exposure law. The council’s edict applies to places of public accommodation, such as bars, restaurants and stores and also applies to taxis.

link to source

while I do agree HB2 was also ramrodded, this all came about because someone felt the need for immediate change and didn't bother to go about this the way we always have. And the way we always have, may not be the way others in other states do it, but it is EXACTLY how we do it. I hope that clarifies my intentions a bit. You and I usually are on the same page, and I feel as if that hasn't changed with this.

originally posted by: intrptr

In the big city authority is given over to the power that runs things, in the small town, the people themselves still run things. They decide whats good for them or not, the way it should be.

Don't let the outsiders get a toe hold in your planning commissions or town councils. Keep it local.

So let's say a small town is 80% white and 20% black. Both the whites and the blacks were born and raised in this small town. The ancestors of the blacks have been there just as long as the ancestors of the whites. The white majority in this small town votes that the blacks should be considered inferior, therefore they can't vote in local elections, they can't own businesses, they can't shop in "whites only" retail establishments, and it won't be against the law any more to lynch a black person who refuses to follow said rules.

In my example, a small town just decided to do what was good for the majority of them. Is it still good for the majority to rule?

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: intrptr

In the big city authority is given over to the power that runs things, in the small town, the people themselves still run things. They decide whats good for them or not, the way it should be.

Don't let the outsiders get a toe hold in your planning commissions or town councils. Keep it local.

So let's say a small town is 80% white and 20% black. Both the whites and the blacks were born and raised in this small town. The ancestors of the blacks have been there just as long as the ancestors of the whites. The white majority in this small town votes that the blacks should be considered inferior, therefore they can't vote in local elections, they can't own businesses, they can't shop in "whites only" retail establishments, and it won't be against the law any more to lynch a black person who refuses to follow said rules.

In my example, a small town just decided to do what was good for the majority of them. Is it still good for the majority to rule?

Was there already a federal law in place that superseded that?

a reply to: network dude

Another HB2 rant that doesn't address the reality of HB2?

It seems to me that in this rant as in the other, you're not so much supporting the passage of HB2 as trying to invalidate the opposition to its passage. In my opinion, this indicates that you likely started with an opinion and now you're trying to justify that opinion.

In all the conversation, it boiled down to, the new law, doesn't mention LGBT in anti-discrimination verbiage.

Wrong.

If the NC General Assembly simply wanted to strike down the Charlotte provision for public restrooms, they could have done just that but they didn't. What they did instead was take away the power of individual communities to have their own anti-discrimination ordinances and if that wasn't bad enough, they threw in a bit that took away workers' rights to sue under the state's own anti-discrimination laws leaving these NC residents with no recourse at the state level.

What does this woman have to do with ANYTHING you were just aimlessly rambling about?

WNCN - NC woman suing for age discrimination gets caught up in HB2 bill fallout

“It remains the public policy on the books that North Carolina prohibits discrimination in the workplace,” said Laura Noble, her employment attorney. “But now we have no enforcement mechanism in our state.” Going through the federal process extends the suit, perhaps by years, plus the plaintiff can’t recover damages for pain and suffering, Noble said. “Why would you force your citizens to go to federal court?” Noble said. “Why wouldn’t you want a state that says, ‘no we value anti-discrimination laws and we’re going to enforce them in our states.'”

Or this woman. Or this man.

What are you still not getting?

NC Justice Center - HB2 Guts Core Worker Anti-discrimination Protections

HB2 eliminates state law remedies for employees who are fired based on their race, religion, color, national origin, age, sex or handicap. Specifically, section 3.2 of the bill ended an employee’s private right to sue an employer who fires him or her for any one of these discriminatory reasons. As a result, this leaves employees who are fired simply because they are black or a female or Christian without any effective protections under state law.

HB 2 Affects Everyone with a Paycheck

HB2 could potentially impact everyone who has a job. Not just the LGBT community. “What the legislature and the governor did was essentially legalize discrimination under North Carolina law. It’s that simple,” said Joshua Van Kampen. Van Kampen, an employment attorney in Charlotte, says there’s only one other state in the union – Mississippi – that allows discrimination under state law.

a reply to: network dude

It hasn't. I just think a lot of the discussion is focused on one issue and one issue alone.

In my opinion, the Charlotte ordinance was a good thing. It said that a cab driver is no longer legally protected when he asks a fare if they're gay, and if they are he drives off without them. Thanks to HB2, a cab driver can do exactly that. And I think that's wrong, just as it would be wrong for the cab driver to drive off on a fare because they're in a wheelchair. I think Charlotte got it wrong when they tacked on the bathroom portion to the ordinance, and at least one member of the city council issued a statement saying the same thing. She was happy to vote for the ordinance right up until Mayor Roberts started pushing the bathroom issue to be included. I think the council reached too far with that, but only that.

I think the state legislature would probably be facing a lot less criticism of they had limited the scope of their bill to the bathroom issue. I can't think of any good reason to tell the people of North Carolina that "hey, not only can you be fired for being gay but if you return to your employer as a customer, they can throw you out for being gay!" Exchange "gay" for black, Hispanic, a woman, old, paralyzed and the above concept suddenly becomes something entirely different. And I don't see why it should be different. Which goes back to your idea of "treat people decent."

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to nothing more than one group stuck something they wanted in with a bunch of other stuff, and then the other group reacted by doing the exact same thing. It's all pretty pathetic.

a reply to: network dude

Another legal opinion:

Wake Forest Univ School of Law

The law says there’s a state policy against discrimination based on race, religion, color, national origin, age, “biological sex” or handicap, but prevents any civil action in state court based on that. Plaintiffs can still file in federal court, but must first go through an approval process with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) that can last up to six months.

“A federal lawsuit can be more difficult and more expensive to file,” said Harold Lloyd, an associate professor at Wake Forest School of Law.

Lloyd said it seemed like the law was designed to reduce the amount of discrimination suits filed and is a major shift in state law.

“It’s going to create changes we cannot fully understand at this point,” he said.

The law also prevents local governments from issuing ordinances that superseded the state on minimum wage, payment of wages, hours of labor, benefits, leave or the well-being of minors. Local governments can still control the wages or benefits of its own owners, but generally cannot place requirements on the contractors it uses.

HB 2 also prevents local ordinances from going beyond state law on discrimination, which means there are now no discrimination protections for LGBT individuals in the state. According to the Associated Press, several local governments had also added veterans as a protected class, which is now invalidated by HB 2.

a reply to: kaylaluv
You're describing endemic racism from the past where its existed already for a long time. The town divided against itself is ripe for outside controllers to exploit the division. Thats how the media does it on a national scale.

My post was directed to how its supposed to be, self reliant small communities as opposed to big cities.