If you don't embrace change, you are racist and bigoted.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox


I don't buy a 4 year old can make that determination, but let's say they were 10, where that had at least something remotely close to adult reasoning and understanding of the long term effects of decisions.


I would dress them in more unisex clothes and maybe swap to a version of there name that was closer to unisex.that way you provide somewhat of a neutral platform for the child to be able to make that decision at a later age, from a more informed position.

Also you limit the teasing your kid will receive from their class mates. Dressing a 4 year old as the opposite sex and changing there name, should guarentee your kid a life as a political symbol. The push back from other parents and children would be immediate..instantly your child would be singled out as the "weird one." Who which would be repeated every single grade.


I'm an athiest. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sentence my daughter to being the only 5 year old saying God (or Santa clause lol) isn't real to 3rd graders. I know she would be a target and hamstrung in every social aspect until at least high school. Most don't figure out religion is BS till college.

You don't believe a four year old can be depressed/stressed to the point of not functioning normally? You're wrong.

What if the child isn't happy with gender neutral clothing and name? What if they're still not participating in life as they should be? Kids are smart enough to know when you are trying to trick them. They won't fall for that.

If a kid changes gender and is teased/bullied, you either have the school deal with it or you move to another school whose kids don't know yours. Many parents of transgender kids have done that very thing. You do what you have to do to keep your child from wanting to end their life.

nymag.com...

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You make it sound like a kid announces they are a different gender on Monday, and by Wednesday they are getting drugs and hormones. It doesn't work that way.

Most times, a kid will announce they are a different gender by the time they are 3 or 4 years old. Their parents may allow the child to dress as their identified gender along with changing their name, but it takes years of therapy before that child will take puberty blockers. Then it takes a while on puberty blockers and more therapy before they start taking hormones.

Please tell me how many times a 3 or 4 year old still claims to be a ninja turtle by the time they are 13 or 14. Betchya can't give me even one example.

Really, so at 3 or 4, when most children only have the vaguest idea of gender roles. You decide the kid knows how it will want to spend the rest of its life enough to choose to start dressing it as its opposite sex???? 3 or 4?? Ana's that's 100% the child's idea????

At 3 or 4 my daughter wasn't compitant enough to make life long decisions...

Yep. They may not totally understand the genitalia difference, but they can look at a girl and know it's a girl, or see a boy and know it's a boy. They know what a boy is and they know what a girl is. And if everyone is calling them a boy when they identify as a girl, it really tends to bother them. Like, a LOT.

Again, this process takes some time. Usually a parent doesn't put the boy in girl's clothes the day after he insists he's a girl. What the experts advise parents is to look for over time is consistent, insistent, persistent. In other words, the child doesn't just sometimes "pretend" to be a girl, like a child might sometimes pretend to be a ninja turtle. The child is a girl 24/7. The parent usually takes the child to mental health experts who have had lots of experience with transgender kids. The professional counsels the child over the course of several weeks to several months to see if, in their professional opinion, the child would be emotionally healthier if allowed to dress and look like the gender they identify with. This is in no way a permanent change, nor is it a life long decision. If the child changes their mind at this stage, they go back to what they were.

The problems that occur when children are forced to look and dress like the gender they don't identify with can be disastrous. We aren't just talking about a few hissy fits. Some 4 year olds even talk about not wanting to live anymore if they have to live as the wrong gender. That's when you can't just ignore it.

I'm not sure disastrous, is the correct term for transgendered who wait till 18 to begin making surgical or medical changes...

I'm not saying trans people are a new thing, but giving kids hormones to make there bodies be a different sex than they were born sure as hell is.....

That would mean that the majority of trans adults alive today are "seriously damaged", because none of them started swapping sexes medically in childhood. It was unheard of....

The burden of proof for making medical and biological changes to a child, is on the one wanting said change. It is up to them to prove they were genetically born wired as a female, but with male plumbing, and will always identify and want to live as a woman.

It isn't and shouldn't be on the world to prove they don't feel that way and will one day want to be their birth sex again...


Something I don't think a child can prove at 4 or 6 or 10.



There are going to be almost no long term studies.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The suicide rate for transgender adults is pretty high, for two reasons:

1. They are often unaccepted in society - discriminated against, attacked verbally and physically

2. They didn't transition until after puberty's permanent effects, which often means that the transition doesn't go as well as they hoped and they can't easily "pass" as their identified gender

These two reasons are usually linked, because the less a transgender person looks like the gender they are on the inside, the more they are unaccepted and treated badly by society.

Because puberty blockers are relatively recent, we don't have long term studies to look at, but the current view is that young transgender people are much happier and emotionally healthier the earlier they begin the transition. That doesn't mean sex reassignment surgery at 12. It means delaying puberty for a little while and possibly taking hormones starting in mid-late teens.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I saw someone use the TMNT example above so I'll use that.

I could care less if someone thinks they are supposed to be a ninja turtle. They can dress up in a costume and go about their day in it for all I care. Seriously. I. Don't. Care.

Now, the issue then becomes where the line is drawn at the accommodations we as a society at large have to make for such folks?

What if this person claims that because he's a ninja turtle he can't ride he bus due to the seat size? There will be complications if someone goes outside the bell curve of society. Where does "reasonable accommodation" end, and pure pandering and lunacy begin?

You know, Mystic, I've read and starred a few great posts from you in the last few days but this isn't one of them. I am truly disappointed. We are talking about children, not identity politics, make believe cartoon characters or the descent of civilization into madness and anarchy. Being transgender is not about wearing a costume. I know you are really smart so please take the time to educate yourself on this subject, leave politics out of it and think about these kids as human beings.

Who decides when the accommodating of a group of people is "to much"?

WHAT GROUP OF PEOPLE??? Boys? Girls? Is that too much? You've been so swayed and inundated with bathroom talk, you forget we are talking about children here who aren't making a political statement or being accused of being predatory men in a dress. For cryin' out loud, man, please separate these issues because quite honestly, trans kids and adults have different etiologies, different issues and very little in common. Grrr!

JoshuaCox, I won't debate this with you. You have nothing more than opinion and what if's going for you here and frankly, I think you would feel differently if you ever had to deal with one of your own children being transgender. I've read everything you have said and have heard other parents say the same things. Until you are faced with a non-functional child, one you fear is going to self-mutilate to rid themselves of parts that don't belong or a 7 year old that tries to commit suicide or refuses to go to school, then you're never going to understand the depth and severity of this problem. I'll just leave it at that.




Kaylaluv, thanks for your efforts. I recognize willful ignorance when I see it and some people refuse to learn or budge from an uninformed opinion no matter how hard you try or how much evidence you present. There's a certain former member here, you know the one I'm talking about, that's now 21 and at university that was on the blocker protocol, transitioned at 12 and had SRS at 17. I doubt even she could help some of these folks to get it. I'm sure not having any better luck even though I too know what I'm talking about.

originally posted by: Freija


Kaylaluv, thanks for your efforts. I recognize willful ignorance when I see it and some people refuse to learn or budge from an uninformed opinion no matter how hard you try or how much evidence you present. There's a certain former member here, you know the one I'm talking about, that's now 21 and at university that was on the blocker protocol, transitioned at 12 and had SRS at 17. I doubt even she could help some of these folks to get it. I'm sure not having any better luck even though I too know what I'm talking about.

Yes, I'm aware of that former member, and I know that she is a happy, healthy, successful young woman because she was lucky enough to begin her transition early. I remember her saying that no one at her university knows her past, and no one would know that she was born with a different physical body unless she told them.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The suicide rate for transgender adults is pretty high, for two reasons:

1. They are often unaccepted in society - discriminated against, attacked verbally and physically

2. They didn't transition until after puberty's permanent effects, which often means that the transition doesn't go as well as they hoped and they can't easily "pass" as their identified gender

These two reasons are usually linked, because the less a transgender person looks like the gender they are on the inside, the more they are unaccepted and treated badly by society.

Because puberty blockers are relatively recent, we don't have long term studies to look at, but the current view is that young transgender people are much happier and emotionally healthier the earlier they begin the transition. That doesn't mean sex reassignment surgery at 12. It means delaying puberty for a little while and possibly taking hormones starting in mid-late teens.

How are those negatives worse than someone born, really ugly, genetics to be very overweight, extremely socially awkward, exc, exc,

Trans kids are not remotely the only ones who dislike their personal appearance. Even to an extreme extent.

Nor are they the only ones with problems fitting in, or are bullied.

Plus im betting being the totally swapped in grade school and Jr high is going to stick out like a sore thumb. Up to including protests and weird bathroom rules, for only your kid. The social pressure that kid would face will be multiples of what some one who doesn't include the school in that decision would face.


So as an open trans 10 year old they would be:

Openly harassed, but with minor celebrity status. Meaning your kid is a known social and political target up to nationally.

Parents will be harassed and considered horrible parents.

It will be literally the first thought had in every interaction your child has.



And not being the central focus of every bully and idiot that ever heard of your kid, will hurt them more than waiting till roughly adulthood to begin hormone therapy?!?!

Really....

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I saw someone use the TMNT example above so I'll use that.

I could care less if someone thinks they are supposed to be a ninja turtle. They can dress up in a costume and go about their day in it for all I care. Seriously. I. Don't. Care.

Now, the issue then becomes where the line is drawn at the accommodations we as a society at large have to make for such folks?

What if this person claims that because he's a ninja turtle he can't ride he bus due to the seat size? There will be complications if someone goes outside the bell curve of society. Where does "reasonable accommodation" end, and pure pandering and lunacy begin?

You know, Mystic, I've read and starred a few great posts from you in the last few days but this isn't one of them. I am truly disappointed. We are talking about children, not identity politics, make believe cartoon characters or the descent of civilization into madness and anarchy. Being transgender is not about wearing a costume. I know you are really smart so please take the time to educate yourself on this subject, leave politics out of it and think about these kids as human beings.

Who decides when the accommodating of a group of people is "to much"?

WHAT GROUP OF PEOPLE??? Boys? Girls? Is that too much? You've been so swayed and inundated with bathroom talk, you forget we are talking about children here who aren't making a political statement or being accused of being predatory men in a dress. For cryin' out loud, man, please separate these issues because quite honestly, trans kids and adults have different etiologies, different issues and very little in common. Grrr!

JoshuaCox, I won't debate this with you. You have nothing more than opinion and what if's going for you here and frankly, I think you would feel differently if you ever had to deal with one of your own children being transgender. I've read everything you have said and have heard other parents say the same things. Until you are faced with a non-functional child, one you fear is going to self-mutilate to rid themselves of parts that don't belong or a 7 year old that tries to commit suicide or refuses to go to school, then you're never going to understand the depth and severity of this problem. I'll just leave it at that.

Kaylaluv, thanks for your efforts. I recognize willful ignorance when I see it and some people refuse to learn or budge from an uninformed opinion no matter how hard you try or how much evidence you present. There's a certain former member here, you know the one I'm talking about, that's now 21 and at university that was on the blocker protocol, transitioned at 12 and had SRS at 17. I doubt even she could help some of these folks to get it. I'm sure not having any better luck even though I too know what I'm talking about.

The example of the person on here who went through a similar thing, is of literally the exact age I thought sounded appropriate.

Y'all are talking about changing kids over at 4 and giving hormone theropy at 12....

That is a totally different time scale then swapped at 12 and began hormones at 17...

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
The example of the person on here who went through a similar thing, is of literally the exact age I thought sounded appropriate.

Y'all are talking about changing kids over at 4 and giving hormone theropy at 12....

That is a totally different time scale then swapped at 12 and began hormones at 17...

But what you don't know is that she started saying she was a girl from the time she could talk, transitioned everywhere but school at six and all of the struggles and things her parents went through before then, She went on puberty blockers then on estrogen at 13 then had sex reassignment surgery when she was 17. Other than being rocket scientist smart and stunningly beautiful (pic), there is no way she could have had any normal sort of life without these protocols.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
The example of the person on here who went through a similar thing, is of literally the exact age I thought sounded appropriate.

Y'all are talking about changing kids over at 4 and giving hormone theropy at 12....

That is a totally different time scale then swapped at 12 and began hormones at 17...

But what you don't know is that she started saying she was a girl from the time she could talk, transitioned everywhere but school at six and all of the struggles and things her parents went through before then, She went on puberty blockers then on estrogen at 13 then had sex reassignment surgery when she was 17. Other than being rocket scientist smart and stunningly beautiful (pic), there is no way she could have had any normal sort of life without these protocols.

Then never mind I don't agree with that time table....


Letting 4 year olds make life long decisions, and giving grade school children hormones is literally one of the worst things I have heard of lately.... Which is why I have been so active here.....

How is this different from any other obsession a child has?

Some kids believe they have invisible friends for over a decade, how come we don't make the whole world acknowledge their invisible friend and set a plate for them at the table?

Literally you have the same amount of evidence as giving a 5 to12 year old hormones, as some kid who believes they have an invisible friend for years... It's all just the opinion of 5 year olds. There is no test for either one...


Also, if you have ever heard of feral children, it is a very shocking example of how impressionable children are. There is a kid from Russia who's monstrous parents left her in the dog pen from 3 to 13. The only real interaction she had was with dogs, and the poor kid literally became one. Moving, eating and panting exactly like a dog.

So if that poor little girl can be "brainwashed" into being a dog. Then how couldn't a kid told they were the opposite sex from their birth, be brainwashed into believing it?

I gave this topic its own thread if y'all are interested.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: kaylaluv

Since they are fixing the other thread, I hope you get this.



I am not saying a trans kid being bullied is right or fair, just that it is the reality.

Same as if you name your kid "shine qua" it won't be fair that she gets half as many responses to job applications, as if she was named Becky. But right and fair won't make her call back percentage go up...

Emotions are not real, they are how we precieve what is real.

*** Stay on topic please ***

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox


I don't buy a 4 year old can make that determination, but let's say they were 10, where that had at least something remotely close to adult reasoning and understanding of the long term effects of decisions.


I would dress them in more unisex clothes and maybe swap to a version of there name that was closer to unisex.that way you provide somewhat of a neutral platform for the child to be able to make that decision at a later age, from a more informed position.

Also you limit the teasing your kid will receive from their class mates. Dressing a 4 year old as the opposite sex and changing there name, should guarentee your kid a life as a political symbol. The push back from other parents and children would be immediate..instantly your child would be singled out as the "weird one." Who which would be repeated every single grade.


I'm an athiest. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sentence my daughter to being the only 5 year old saying God (or Santa clause lol) isn't real to 3rd graders. I know she would be a target and hamstrung in every social aspect until at least high school. Most don't figure out religion is BS till college.

You don't believe a four year old can be depressed/stressed to the point of not functioning normally? You're wrong.

What if the child isn't happy with gender neutral clothing and name? What if they're still not participating in life as they should be? Kids are smart enough to know when you are trying to trick them. They won't fall for that.

If a kid changes gender and is teased/bullied, you either have the school deal with it or you move to another school whose kids don't know yours. Many parents of transgender kids have done that very thing. You do what you have to do to keep your child from wanting to end their life.

nymag.com...

It's going to be repeated at every school...some worse than others.

Hopefully your kid is logical enough to understand that playing roles is a way of life. Explain it is acting. I am not who I really am at work. Most likely you are not either. Your not who you really are around certain family members....

we play different roles in different circumstances. If your at a country club, your gonna act higher class then you are. If your in jail your gonna act tougher then you are.


If she can't deal with that, she prob can't deal life.

People don't get to choose how they look. People are obsessive about changing they way they look. Especially teenagers.

Your kid not being suicidal because they can't wear make up and a dress at school. When they are allowed to be themselves at home, I don't think is an unrealistic expectation.