HB2, North Carolina mandate to hate homosexuals.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

RE: "it seems obvious" on the BIID issue...here is a case:

www.barcroft.tv...

Oddly enough, she lives in North Carolina.

I really don't get your point here. Are you saying this woman doesn't deserve to be on disability because she blinded herself? Is she or is she not disabled? Wasn't she disabled even before she blinded herself? She had a legitimate diagnosed disorder that made it difficult for her to live a normal life. They could have tried to give her all kinds of psych meds to relieve the disorder that would have all kinds of side effects, which would have also made it difficult for her to live a normal life. And how does this compare to a transgender person who just wants to go to the restroom?

I would say, personally, that she was not qualified for disablity. But this isn't so much about personal philosophy.

Transgender people have been using the bathroom for decades in the US without issue, so Im unsure what any of this has to do with transgender folks who just want to go to the bathroom. But in the context of this discussion, is society on the whole responsible for making extraordinary accomodations for people who fall in an extreme minority that is well outside the typical?

Do we make bathroom accommodations for folks based on gender identity?

Do we make disability accommodations for folks based on body integrity identity?

Do we force airlines to accommodate people who exceed the dimensions of their seat?

I think the 3 questions above are related, and are part of the same discussion. They each deal with a personal pathology that has public implications.

Since the legislature in North Carolina opened this Pandora's Box, im just wanting to have a look around inside of it.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

Since the legislature in North Carolina opened this Pandora's Box, im just wanting to have a look around inside of it.

Unless it's just been cleaned, I'd kind of wait for the movie to come out. Just sayin.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Do we make bathroom accommodations for folks based on gender identity?

If it has absolutely no impact on your rights or freedoms, yes.
No one has asked for any special treatment. No one has been asked to do anything other than allow people to use the rest room.
Once again, this law was not created because anyone was asking for special treatment. This law was created as an excuse to revoke all equality laws for LGBT people across the state, by a bunch of hateful, ignorant, religious Republicans.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Do we make disability accommodations for folks based on body integrity identity?

If it has absolutely no impact on your rights or freedoms, yes.

Since when did having a rest room for those in a wheel chair affect you at all?
When did installing a ramp for them to get into a building ever inconvenience you at all?
When did having something printed in Braille ever get in your way?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Do we force airlines to accommodate people who exceed the dimensions of their seat?

If it has absolutely no impact on your rights or freedoms, yes.

However, weight is something that can be changed, disability not so much.
But once again I find myself wondering how making any of these accommodations has any negative impact on anyone else.

Seems to me this is nothing more than what we expect, people whining about other people having the same as them. "How dare a disabled person have access to that building!? How dare a transgender person have use of a rest room!? How dare a gay person have the right to marry their partner!? It makes no difference to my life, but I demand the right to meter out what they deserve!"

a reply to: Rocker2013

The impact on my rights is cost.

As a business owner, the cost of putting in another restroom is pretty high. The list of businesses that ADA closed is rather long nationally.

Im not asking this as a way to just nitpick people. Im seeing the financial impact it would have.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan


Do we make bathroom accommodations for folks based on gender identity?

Do we make disability accommodations for folks based on body integrity identity?

Do we force airlines to accommodate people who exceed the dimensions of their seat?

I'm not getting it either.

Bathrooms are already there.

Plane seats are already there. You pay for space. If you require more then one space you pay for the space you need.

The only major requirement I understand (for bathrooms) is for the physically disabled. Because logistically a wheelchair can not be accommodated in anyway other then structurally accessible.

Handrails for the elderly is nice, but can be easily added.

a reply to: Annee

so would you just close one bathroom down and put a unisex sign on the other, or would you go unisex on both and let the chips fall where they may?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Rocker2013

The impact on my rights is cost.

As a business owner, the cost of putting in another restroom is pretty high. The list of businesses that ADA closed is rather long nationally.

Im not asking this as a way to just nitpick people. Im seeing the financial impact it would have.

Be a Christian church. They fought and won to be exempt from ACA requirements.

Such good little Christians.

An essay donated by Tina Heron - - A personal experience

"You can’t be disabled & Christian, unless you surrender to Discrimination & Victimization"

Everything started well but I began to experience access problems -- not with the buildings but with procedures. I used my knowledge and skills to try to affect change. At one church I was repeatedly locked into the worship area because a steward locked one half of the double doors behind me. On one occasion I literally brought a service to a standstill because I could not get out to use the toilet. At another church every time I approached the building I could not get in because one side of the double doors was locked. This church was on two levels if I could not get parked on the top level access on the lower level was via a fire exit door that was never manned and did not have a door bell. On one dark night I had to approach a stranger on the street to go and find someone to let me in. All the problems I experienced had simple solutions but no would listen. These small barriers to access became mountains that I had to climb every time I attended church. I spoke to so many people to try to get things changed.

I suggested training. I spoke about the churches need to comply with the Disability Discrimination act. I spoke to ministers, lay workers, my tutor, church stewards and welcomers many of these people were on their church council but not one would put it on the agenda. I was labeled as a trouble maker. Each time I spoke to someone I could see that they were not listening. Over a period of 6 years no would take any notice or offer me any help. I felt like a waste of space. Where was God in all this because no matter how I prayed nothing changed. I found it more and more difficult to cope and began to stay at home instead of going to church. Then over a period of 6 weeks I was locked out of three meetings. I was furious when I left my last church I had vowed that I would never be locked out again.

This time I took drastic action and went to see the circuit superintendent. This so called man of God would not help. He said "You credit me with more power that I have." He would not call a meeting of the ministers. He would not deal with the access problems in his own church. He would not tell me where to go for help. He blocked all my suggestions and refused to allow me to speak to the church. www.religioustolerance.org...

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Annee

so would you just close one bathroom down and put a unisex sign on the other, or would you go unisex on both and let the chips fall where they may?

I'd probably put unisex on both.

I think i've seen both sides of this argument use a "its for the children" argument. No real comment on that other than simply observing it as having happened, and finding it a bit disconnected.

a reply to: Annee

I just had a mental image of a dainty little 20 something woman stepping into a stall next to a construction worker who 3 hours prior, bet his co-workers he could eat 12 burritos from Taco Bell. Welcome to the jungle baby.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
I think i've seen both sides of this argument use a "its for the children" argument. No real comment on that other than simply observing it as having happened, and finding it a bit disconnected.

Yes, but its different when "for the children" is based on adult fears and prejudices.

Do you think most kids would care who uses the bathroom?

Transgenders (transgender kids) - - are the only ones that honestly have legitimate reason.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Annee

I just had a mental image of a dainty little 20 something woman stepping into a stall next to a construction worker who 3 hours prior, bet his co-workers he could eat 12 burritos from Taco Bell. Welcome to the jungle baby.

I just see it as life.

I honestly do not get the "primness" of bodily functions.

a reply to: Annee

in the interest of meeting in the middle...

there are people who do not see it that way, and need privacy.

It takes all types.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Annee

in the interest of meeting in the middle...

there are people who do not see it that way, and need privacy.

It takes all types.

Oh, Yeah - - I know - - previous convo.

But, don't you do that in your home? Mostly?

13 pages in and have seen some real ignorance displayed. Kudos to Annee, Freija, Rocker, and BFFT, I have enjoyed the discussion. I am a straight white male, have numerous gay friends, and a couple of MTF transgendered aquaintances. Long story short, this bill, and those like it suck.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Freija

If it helps, just always remember: you and I have the same goal here. And neither of us intends anything ill or hurtful.

I can believe that. If you can, we'll be ok.

Indeed.

Well, I have done my homework on the parallels, or at least the parallels being made between BIID and being transgender and am in a better position to have that discussion, however, I feel that discussion far exceeds the topic of this thread? At this time, which is still kind of short for me at the moment, I'm just going to paste in some gathered comments and withhold my further discussion until later or a more appropriate thread comes up.

What I see as the primary difference is precisely that concept of reduction or loss. Although concepts of health or optimal human ability are, to a degree, subjective and culturally mediated, I think it’s both valid and possible to posit models of general basic human physical health / ability, and mental health / ability. Relative to such models, the overall psychological benefit of transition in comparison to the physiological harm is much more clear and less ambiguous than in the case of procedures for BIID. There is virtually no actual loss of health or function in the case of transition… the only real example of such we can point to is fertility. All other potential losses are purely socio-cultural. In the case of BIID, however, there is almost by definition a major loss of function or ability (which is weighed against the possible benefit to mental health). The individual pursuing the treatment may not personally regard it as a loss, but relative to an overall model of optimal human health and ability? I’m afraid it wouldn’t be unreasonable to regard it as such.

With the sensitivity of language I undoubtedly lack to talk about ability challenged people or sufficient knowledge of the whole BIID thing (transabled), I should probably just keep my mouth shut about it all. I will say it somewhat seems to be a case of one minority co-opting something from another in an attempt to help others who are outside of their minority group to comprehend their issues by trying to find a mutually understood frame of reference or to gain legitimacy from something that is better medically and psychologically understood.

I also see how BIID and the apparent absurdity or eccentricity of it is used as a way to discredit or mock trans people and initially when this was brought up, I acted reflexively because of my advocacy. There are many parallels - having surgery to correct the configuration of the physical body to match the mental image applies to both conditions but that does not mean the conditions are related. Even if there is a parallel between surgically changing the configuration of the body between BIID and gender dysphoria, that doesn't causally relate the two conditions. You know, the whole correlation not equating causality argument.

So how do they compare? BIID has nothing to do with gender identity. I think gender is much more socially complex and involved than someone's level of physical or mental ability. Most people would think losing an arm or a leg would create a disability or handicap and may even require outside assistance whereas being transsexual does not result in loss but a reconfiguration of something to gain functionality rather than the opposite.

These are complex and complicated issues and a lot of medical ethics are involved. Multiple tens of thousands if not a hundred thousand have been helped and benefited through gender transition and are living successful, productive and happy lives. There isn't quite enough known about BIID and BDD to make that claim and since I know nothing personally about it, I'm withdrawing myself from further discussion of it. (or at least I think I am?)

Back on topic now, at least tangentially

Tennessee Legislators Pull Controversial Transgender Bathroom Bill — Again

Tennessee is among numerous states and municipalities where lawmakers have tried to discriminate against transgender individuals using so-called bathroom bills. North Carolina recently enacted a sweeping anti-LGBT bill, which included a measure preventing transgender people from using public facilities that align with their gender identity. Tennessee’s bill would have only applied to bathrooms and locker rooms at K-12 schools.

Targeting the kids again specifically, I see. Glad it died.

Amusing:
Sorry Perverts. Y’all Ain’t Invited to the Potty

Sad:
Houston Trans Woman Murdered
Another Trans Woman Murdered- RIP Keyonna

PS - Thank you, BFFT!

YAY!

Tennessee’s anti-transgender “bathroom bill” has gone down the drain again — and it will apparently stay there for at least a year.

Read between the lines. 1. Pressure from "Family Value Group". 2. Focus on students.

100% clear who is behind these laws and who they are targeting.

In March, a legislative committee had delayed action on the bill by sending it to a summer study session, but the committee, under pressure from the far-right Family Action Council of Tennessee, revived it in early April. Today, though, its sponsor in the House of Representatives, Susan Lynn, said she would withdraw the bill until next year, reports Nashville paper The Tennessean.

The measure, House Bill 2414, and its companion legislation, Senate Bill 2387, would have barred transgender students in public elementary and secondary schools, colleges, and universities from using the restrooms, locker rooms, and other sex-segregated facilities that correspond with their gender identity. “I have learned that our school districts are largely following what the bill says,” Lynn told The Tennessean

As noted on page 2 of this thread, part of the Republican National Committee Platform aimed to tell the Dept. of Education where to go:

The resolution, approved under the chairmanship of Reince Priebus, condemns as “governmental overreach” the Obama administration’s interpretation of Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 to prohibit discrimination against transgender students.

“The Republican National Committee calls on the Department of Education to rescind its interpretation of Title IX that wrongly includes facility use issues by transgender students,” the resolution says. The “whereas” portion of the resolution defines gender as “the physical condition of being male or female,” saying gender is identified at birth and can be confirmed with a DNA test — which is contrary to the experience of transgender people.

The resolution also specifies Congress never included the term “gender identity” under Title IX and identifies courts that have ruled the gender provisions under the law don’t apply to transgender students.

So, RNC, fundies and North Carolina - TOO BAD!

Federal Appeals Court Upholds Protections For Transgender People In Landmark Ruling

WASHINGTON — A federal appeals court on Tuesday upheld the Department of Education’s interpretation of existing federal civil rights laws to protect transgender people against discrimination in education.

The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, in a 2-1 decision, upheld the department’s interpretation of Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, which is that the law’s ban on sex discrimination requires school districts to allow transgender people to use the restroom that corresponds with their gender identity.

BREAKING: Federal Appeals Court Sides With Transgender Teen, Upholds Protections in Historic Ruling

The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals has just ruled that federal civil rights laws include transgender people in cases involving education discrimination. The 2-1 ruling is in a Title IX case involving a Virginia transgender boy suing for the right to use the boys' restrooms at his school. It affirms the Obama Administration's interpretation of Title IX, that discrimination against transgender people is sex discrimination, and reverses an earlier dismissal of the student's claim

YAY!!!

a reply to: Freija

WOW!

I knew it would backfire. Just didn't expect the swiftness.

I honestly believe the majority (legal and individual) have had enough of these Right Wing Fundies.

Do we get the name of the one idiot who voted against it?

a reply to: Annee

Sure, it does. Look around. Happens all the time.