Christian worker loses appeal after 'giving book to Muslim colleague'

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: jimbo999
a reply to: Gryphon66

Did you actually READ the original BBC report? Apparently not.

Sure I read it. And I read everything that followed here, INCLUDING Ms. Wasteney's admissions that she engaged in a systematic attack on her employee's religious beliefs over a year's period.

You're really not the one in the scenario that needs to toss accusations of ignorance.

Do you have evidence that for some reason that Wasteney's admissions are inaccurate? SHE ADMITS SHE DID WHAT SHE WAS DISMISSED FOR!!!!!

Do you have some evidence that the NHS regulations on workplace and religious behavior were abrogated in this case?

Or just your belief that there's a phantom menace at work in all areas of European and British society that makes your bowels apparently loose?

Then post your link. Let's see this "admission"

a reply to: jimbo999

Thanks for your life history. Your presumptions of who I am and what I believe, however, are ludicrous ... and utterly unimportant in regard to the topic under discussion.

You continue to ignore the clear facts of this case due to your stated fears about changes in demographics.

Notice that you want to talk about EVERYTHING except what Ms. Wasteney HERSELF has admitted she did to her Muslim employee.

This case, both literally and figuratively, is closed.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Hmmm...looks like there's another side to the story after all:

Three charges were upheld against the 37-year-old Christian at an internal disciplinary hearing in February and five charges were found to be unsubstantiated. She had to accept a final written warning at work which will remain on her records for 12 months, as well as accept a range of other requirements designed to stop her discussing her faith and beliefs with colleagues. Miss Wasteney said she was challenging her employers in court because political correctness in the NHS was stifling ordinary conversations about faith. “I believe in tolerance for everyone and that is why I am challenging what has happened to me,” she added. The young Muslim woman was appointed as a newly qualified occupational therapist in a team of 30 managed by Miss Wasteney at East London NHS Foundation Trust. “One of the earliest conversations I can recall was one in which she said she had just moved to London. She felt that God had a real plan and a purpose for her,” said Miss Wasteney, from Essex. Miss Wasteney told her colleague that she went to church, but was “very cautious because our environment is such that these things can be misconstrued and, with her being from a different faith background, I was mindful of being respectful of that”. Miss Wasteney said the woman was interested in the anti-human trafficking community work being done by her church. Over a period of time, Miss Wasteney said she invited her colleague to several church-organised events and thought no more about it. Later, when the woman was due to go off work for hospital treatment, Miss Wasteney gave her a book to read during her recuperation. “A friend had recommended it to me, a book called I Dared to Call Him Father. I hadn’t read it. I still haven’t. But it is a story about a Muslim woman who converts to Christianity. “Because we had had these conversations it did not seem abnormal. It certainly was not an attempt to convert her to Christianity, as it was put to me later.”

Inconvenient or what??

pcwatch.blogspot.ca...

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: jimbo999

Thanks for your life history. Your presumptions of who I am and what I believe, however, are ludicrous ... and utterly unimportant in regard to the topic under discussion.

You continue to ignore the clear facts of this case due to your stated fears about changes in demographics.

Notice that you want to talk about EVERYTHING except what Ms. Wasteney HERSELF has admitted she did to her Muslim employee.

This case, both literally and figuratively, is closed.

My background is very relative to the case - as i have a far better grasp than you do as an American.

As for her statements - check the above comment.

As for it being 'open' or 'closed' - well, that's not really up to you is it? As a long time contributor here, I can assure you that's up to the Admins here on ATS. The kangaroo court case however, is another matter entirely.

As for "demographics" - it's not about demographics - they don't concern me really. Cultural and social destruction are another matter however.

a reply to: jimbo999

Your background has ZERO to do with the fact that Ms. Wasteney admitted her wrong-doing.

She lost her appeal; indeed the case is closed, ATS notwithstanding.

From the OP:

She challenged the decision at an employment tribunal last year, but it ruled her employer had not discriminated against her. A judge gave her the chance to appeal against that decision, saying it should consider whether the original ruling correctly applied the European Convention on Human Rights' strong protection of freedom of religion and expression. But Judge Jennifer Eady QC dismissed the appeal on Thursday.

As to the rest, ... you're going on and on about changes in demographics ... what you call "cultural and social destruction" in your, again, rather extremist view. You don't like Muslims immigrating to your country and that's plain, but implying that has anything AT ALL to do with this case is absurd.

And again, whether or not a vast unified conspiracy of Muslims are overtaking Europe and the UK, EVEN IF THAT IS TRUE, it has ZERO bearing on the case that we are discussing in this thread.

Why don't you start a thread about "The Phantom Muslim Menace" ... it's not like there's exactly a rarity of those around here ... you'll probably be one of ten or twenty to do so today.

... but as to the facts of the matter of this thread's topic goes ... indeed, both literally and figuratively, the case IS closed.

I was harrassed big time by christians at my work place. I got emails saying that one day I WILL find jesus [which really pisses me off when someone says that, especially if they don't know me].
I was preached at whilst trying to do very accurate measurements and tests [worked in a pharmaceutical lab]. He actually stood there with an open bible and read loudly to me, with his fingers pointing.

I told them [two of them, one guy who was a preacher in his community and his sidekick] many times to leave me alone, I'm trying to work and hoped they would shut up, but they didn't. I'd find flyers and leaflets etc and nothing I could say would stop them. I complained but the Boss didn't take it seriously.

Mind you, on the workbench opposite of me worked a newborn christian girl [who became very religious after running against a tree and losing consiousness...not kidding!].
We used to often have very good conversations about religion and bible context. But then again she didn't actually try and convert me.


All because I am an Atheist.

Personally, I can handle stuff like that as long as it is within the realm of 'normal conversation', as soon as there is preaching involved however [which is usually one sided], it MUST be stopped when at work as it can be extremely distracting. Especially if you have no interest whatsoever in it.

Its the usual Muslim nonsense, Muslim can stand on a street corner with a placard that says "behead all that oppose Islam" but you give a Christian book to one and it all kicks off. This could have been settled easily and never needed this level off stupidity.

Until we stop giving Islam a special level above people this will carry on....

And people wonder why people like me and MANY others fail to see reason to follow religion or believe in any of its stories!

Religion, causing conflict since day 1

a reply to: Hecate666

Thanks for being one of the few voices of reason here in the discussion.

I'm sorry you were harassed at work; there's absolutely no excuse for that kind of behavior.

a reply to: Mclaneinc

So, you see no problem with a SUPERVISOR continually, in a workplace environment, barraging an EMPLOYEE with conversation and materials (not just "a book" but DVDs, pamplets, etc.) attempting to disparage their religion and encourage them to convert to another???

Somehow that specific (and unquestionable fact) equates to "the usual Muslim nonsense"?

My god.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: angeldoll
I think both of them should get over themselves. All this 'self-importance' lately is really starting to bug me. I'd like to feed them both a big slice of humble pie.

So, to you, it's fine for a manager to harass and berate an employee for nearly a year based on religion?

In the real world, you should probably bring your own plate and fork to that pie-eating contest.

Lol! A zinger you have given me? (laughing)

Over self importance and humble pie? Bless ya little heart. Self importance you wallow in, but I'm surprised you've ever even heard of humble pie! You are a real piece of work. Funny, though. : )

Too early for me to get down in the dirt with ya. Gotta run, but enjoy your hostilities and otherwise perceived ego-building adventures here on ATS!

a reply to: angeldoll

Yeah yeah yeah ... let's talk about *me* or rather your spurious, nonsensical assessment of "me."

Let's talk about your personal opinions, and your quips, and your pronouncements ... let's talk about ANYTHING but the facts of this discussion.

LOL.

Taa taa! When you get over yourself and stop trying to do armchair analysis of other posters and want to talk facts, I'll be here.

a reply to: Gryphon66

-still laughing-

Here is my post:

I think both of them should get over themselves. All this 'self-importance' lately is really starting to bug me. I'd like to feed them both a big slice of humble pie.

HERE is your response:

So, to you, it's fine for a manager to harass and berate an employee for nearly a year based on religion?

In the real world, you should probably bring your own plate and fork to that pie-eating contest

Now show me where I said it was okay for a manager to harass and berate and employee. Underline it in my quote. Of course it's not there, and attributing thoughts to someone and then insulting them over it is called a strawman argument.

And you furthermore are going to insult me because I think they are both a bit full of themselves?

And this:

Yeah yeah yeah ... let's talk about *me* or rather your spurious, nonsensical assessment of "me."

Let's talk about your personal opinions, and your quips, and your pronouncements ... let's talk about ANYTHING but the facts of this discussion.

LOL.

Taa taa! When you get over yourself and stop trying to do armchair analysis of other posters and want to talk facts, I'll be here.

Are you so blinded by your ego that you can't see all the above is simply projection on your part? Surely you can see that you are the one who does all those things.

Anyway, not up for one of your namecalling sophomoric back and forth's this morning. Find somebody else to play with. It's a beautiful day, and I actually have things to do that are worthwhile. *winks*

a reply to: angeldoll

And here I thought you were dismissively walking out the door ... did your plans change?

LOL

And here you still want to talk about your fantastic ideas about little ol' me, rather than the topic at hand.

Insult YOU? Call YOU names? Oh my goodness.

I'm not the one blinded by ego here angeldoll.

The facts of this matter ... you know, the actual topic of the thread ... are clear. A manager abused another employee both by any reasonable measure and by the policies and procedures established by the organization for which they both worked.

That's the fact. Now, why don't you make good on your threats and continue laughing as you go out and have a fine day?

On me.

I am an advocate of Christian truth, but I have stopped talking about it at work, honestly in this politically correct world, to do so would jeopardize our job, if somebody wants to talk I tell them, not at work.
25 years ago I could have a lively religious discussion in the lunch staff room, and nobody was at all offended, but now we have the sensitive snowflake type that would report it to HR as a complaint of harassment.
I worked with old retired guy once who was just working part time, he never cared if would get canned, so he said whatever he wanted that was totally politically incorrect, it was pretty hilarious actually, especially in the lunch room.
He might have been verbally warned, but he never lost his job.

This story bugs me, but this is the world we live in now.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
I am an advocate of Christian truth, but I have stopped talking about it at work, honestly in this politically correct world, to do so would jeopardize our job, if somebody wants to talk I tell them, not at work.
25 years ago I could have a lively religious discussion in the lunch staff room, and nobody was at all offended, but now we have the sensitive snowflake type that would report it to HR as a complaint of harassment.
I worked with old retired guy once who was just working part time, he never cared if would get canned, so he said whatever he wanted that was totally politically incorrect, it was pretty hilarious actually, especially in the lunch room.
He might have been verbally warned, but he never lost his job.

This story bugs me, but this is the world we live in now.

What does religion have to do with work, in general?

What is so onerous about simply keeping religion OUT of the workplace, in general?

a reply to: Gryphon66

What does religion have to do with work, in general?

It goes to basic conversion between co-workers, for example on Monday a co-worker might ask you how was your weekend what did you do, what if you engaged in religious activities ? This is pretty simple.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Gryphon66

What does religion have to do with work, in general?

It goes to basic conversion between co-workers, for example on Monday a co-worker might ask you how was your weekend what did you do, what if you engaged in religious activities ? This is pretty simple.

Sure ... it's pretty simple in the simplistic example you're now offering ... but that's very obviously contrived.

Was that the extent of your "religious conversations" in the past? Just a simple notation around the water-cooler that you went to Church on Sunday, or the Synagogue on the Sabbath, or the Druid Grove on Friday Night?

Somehow, I think not. Further, conversational banter is not in any way simliar to the intentional and systematic attempts to proselytize that the Christian missionary "manager" inflicted against her Muslim subordinate as here discussed ...

So I guess we can just agree that your musing about past banter with co-workers has little in comparison with this current matter then?

Okie-dokie.

a reply to: Gryphon66

No, the issue is you have a co-worker that asks you a religious question after you mention what you did on the weekend, he/she is ok with hearing the answer either way, but another co-worker overhears, and is offended.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Gryphon66

No, the issue is you have a co-worker that asks you a religious question after you mention what you did on the weekend, he/she is ok with hearing the answer either way, but another co-worker overhears, and is offended.

So, knowing that, I'm sure you made the personal decision not to discuss religion in the workplace on your own, right?

So as not to offend your other co-worker? When by any reasonable measure, religion and religious discussions have NO PLACE in the workplace?

At any rate, you're speaking of contrived hypotheticals in regard for your wistful desires for the days when you could testify at your past workplaces, and this discussion is about the very real and admitted abuse of a manager against her subordinate as outlined clearly in the thread.

Two different things, really.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

The sensible thing then would be to say:"I am not comfy discussing religious issues and matters at work,but we could always meet for coffee/a drink/whatever AFTER work,on our Own Time and discuss it at length-as long as it will not cause any strife between us if we disagree"

That is a friendly and professional way to deal with such questions-and no one else has to listen to one's religious yabberings. Many people find all religions odious and nauseating,and it's not really fair to one's employer to cause some of their employees to be distracted and irritated,takes their mind off actually Working-which is what i presume they get paid for.

Sorry if i sound like a cow,i am not angry,it just really seems stupid to me that people cannot just keep religion out of the workplace. Religion will Always cause division,trouble,strife and disunity. Makes for a very unproductive workplace,if it gets out of hand,imo.