Remote viewing the 911 attacks

originally posted by: samkent
The biggest problem the conspiracy crowd has is the lack of a comprehensive 911 theory.
They come up with ideas of how one small aspect could have been done.
But it doesn't jive with other aspects.
Thermite because it's silent. Then explosives because of seismographs.

Some can't conceptualize the possibility that Thermate can be made to explode need lot's of help to be brought up to intellectual speed.

Coming into this thread rather late to point out some excellent research done by the Pilots for 911 Truth regarding the data they've analyzed around the Pentagon and AA flight 77. (I know some have already referenced the site earlier in this thread, but the very detailed articles on this page are worth reading.)

pilotsfor911truth.org...

The page from the above link contains a good synopsis plus links in the side bar (and Read more links in the summaries) to other articles and technical papers that detail the research behind a number of the key questions/issues they're raising, including:

- Flight data recorder analysis indicating the plane would have been way too high to strike the light poles

- Aircraft departure gate positional data conflicts with official government story

- Overwhelming evidence Pentagon aircraft data is not from an American Airlines 757

- Above Flight Path (csv file) was altered to match south approach

There is a lot of highly technical information contained in these articles, and it takes a while to digest. I would just encourage contributors to this thread to read it all carefully and consider their findings relative to a number of issues that were raised here.

Keep in mind, these are professionals in the aviation business with a lot of experience and knowledge (pilots, aeronautical engineers, etc.) crunching data to see how it matches the official story. They do not offer any alternate theories as to what may have happened (missiles, etc.). They are just asking pointed questions based on thorough research.

a reply to: Gandalf77

- Flight data recorder analysis indicating the plane would have been way too high to strike the light poles

Are you suggesting that some secret SWAT team went around knocking over telephone poles in order to lend credibility to a (presumed) fake cover story?

originally posted by: ColdWisdom
a reply to: Gandalf77

- Flight data recorder analysis indicating the plane would have been way too high to strike the light poles

Are you suggesting that some secret SWAT team went around knocking over telephone poles in order to lend credibility to a (presumed) fake cover story?

I think what he is suggesting, or outright claiming, is that the data released by the government regarding FDRs does not match the reality of what was observed and what would have been required for the story to be true, and moreover, what is physically possible for an airliner.

a reply to: Salander

Yes, Salander is correct. I'm not offering any explanations, SWAT teams or otherwise, to explain how those light poles on highway 27 were knocked down that morning. I'm merely pointing out the findings of several aviation experts' analysis of data received from the NTSB via FOIA requests. (See the press release available on the page I linked to above--and other pages on their site--for details regading their professional qualifications and experience, including the individual who analyzed the FDR data; trained aircraft accident investigators also assisted with their analysis.)

The main point they are making is that the information provided by the government does not gibe with the official account in the 911 commission report, and indeed, it directly contradicts it in signficant ways.

- The data is NOT from N644AA (the data fields that would have provided that information are blank; they absolutely should have contained information; without that info, that recorder could have come from just about anywhere).

- The data does NOT suppport an impact with the Pentagon.

- The data exceeds the capabilities and performance of a standard 757 by a wide margin.

That being the case, they are calling for a new and truly independent investigation to determine what actually hit the Pentagon.

The remote viewers discussed in this thread have suggested a missile. While I can't say exactly how valid that theory is, I will confess I think it's a distinct possibility--certainly within the realm of reasonable alternatives.

There was a lot of back and forth in this thread about the evidence for a 757 hitting the Pentagon. Reading through all of the research and analysis from Pilots for 911 Truth, I think it's fair to say that the original story isn't nearly as cut and dried as some tend to believe. Thus, the door is sufficiently open for discussing alternative possibilities.

a reply to: Gandalf77

That FDR data was looked at in great detail here some years ago and even the missing final seconds of the flight were recovered supporting an impact. The FDR even contained something like 42 hours of recording from all of that plane's previous flights leading up to the final one. Naturally discussion degenerated into an argument over the fact that the cockpit door appeared to be open the entire length of the recording but everything else fitted quite well with external observations.

a reply to: Pilgrum

Thank you Pilgrum. I suspected this FDR data had been discussed before, but didn't have time to search the forum. I'll check into it. If you happen to have a link to the thread handy, I'd be most grateful. There are a number of outstanding issues here, and it would be great to see if they were addressed in that thread. To my knowledge, the findings of the Pilots for 911 Truth (contained in their articles, technical paper, and press releases) haven't been refuted, but the last post I read in their forum on this matter (not the main pages) dates back to 2011. Clearly I may need to do some more follow up. After all, an open mind should be open in both directions.

For example, the data they analyzed showed the Flight Deck Door parameter indicating the door was CLOSED the entire time.

Also, the digital animation provided by the NTSB stops at 09:37:44. NTSB reports impact at 09:37:45; many CSV parameters also terminate at 09:37:45. All data prior to the final missing second indicate trends that would push the aircraft altitude up to 100 feet above the building.

I would be curious if prior discussions addressed the missing aircraft ID parameters in the FDR that would positively prove the aircraft was operated by AA. The information I've reviewed indicates that much of the data could NOT be decoded by the custom data frame layout AA uses for its exclusive needs; in fact, some of the data couldn't even be decoded by the generic Boeing data frame layout.

Another serious issue that I hope was discussed: The latitude/longitude, departure gate, and alignment issues the 911 Pilots for Truth have pointed out as further evidence that the data provided by the NTSB does not belong to that aircraft operated by AA:

LATITUDE/LONGITUDE Further evidence that the data is not from an American Airlines jet nor American Airlines Flight 77, comes in the form of Latitude and Longitude (Lat/Long) coordinates in the data itself. When plotted, the Lat/Long coordinates are more than 3,000 feet in error at time of departure from Washington Dulles International Airport (IAD). According to American Airlines 757/767 Operating Manual, along with several American Airlines 757/767 Captains, the navigational instruments (known as an IRS or Inertial Reference System), is aligned at the gate, prior to all flights(5). If such an error is observed in an American Airlines airplane, the aircraft is grounded until fixed. It would never leave the gate. If such an error was encountered during taxi to the runway, the Captain would have had to return to the gate until it was fixed.(6) DEPARTURE GATE AND FULL ALIGNMENT According to official reports and audio provided by government agencies, American Airlines Flight 77 departed from Gate D26 at IAD(7). However, when the Lat/Long data is adjusted for the 3,000+ foot offset, the data shows a departure from a gate other than D26(8). American Airlines requires a full alignment (as opposed to a "fast alignment") prior to every flight with the pilots physically inputting the Lat/Long coordinates of the gate, provided by navigational charts, into their navigational system. The aircraft should have never left the gate with such a large error within it's navigational system. Although some aircraft have the ability to update it's position in flight, an "update" is very different from an alignment. Any "updates" in flight will not be accurate if the initial alignment was not achieved at the gate. It is interesting to note that Military Aircraft are capable of in flight alignment of an Inertial Navigation System. AUTO-ALIGNMENT AND GPS Military aircraft were equipped with GPS (Global Positioning Systems) long before GPS was offered for Commercial use. When equipped, they can auto-align the Inertial Reference System. N644AA (American Airlines Flight 77) was not equipped with a GPS. However, when one looks through the data, it shows a GPS as "OPERational"(12) and an airborne auto-alignment. How can a GPS be "OPER" if the data is reported to come from an aircraft which doesn't have a GPS? The data shows that the Lat/Long plots auto-aligned with Radar plots in flight after departure(9). American Airlines aircraft do not have the capability of in flight alignment nor would such an aircraft depart with such a large error and an IRS as it's primary source for navigation. It is impossible for an IRS equipped American Airlines jet to give accurate position information if the system was not aligned at the gate. The aircraft needs to be stationary for proper alignment or else the navigational device will have large errors and could perhaps be fatal(10). According to American Airlines 757/767 Captain Ralph Kolstad who has actual flight time in N644AA, if the Inertial Reference System (IRS) is lost in flight (or shows large errors), an emergency has to be declared. The aircraft is required to sit stationary for more than 10 minutes in order obtain a full alignment of the Inertial Reference System prior to every flight, according to and as required by American Airlines 757/767 Operating Manual(11). How can an auto-align occur airborne if American Airlines aircraft do not have this capability nor a GPS? This is more evidence demonstrating the data did not come from an American Airlines jet.

a reply to: Gandalf77

Do a search for 'aa77 fdr pentagon' - should bring up all those threads

There's a link in this thread that may still be active.

I was under the impression that P4T had self destructed so don't get misled by their old stuff that's still floating around the net

a reply to: Pilgrum

Their old stuff is much closer to the truth than the mainstream media's new stuff.



Methinks you would rather avoid a discussion with Gandalf. What he discusses is way above my MOS if you know what I mean, but it sounds serious, and I'm hoping somebody will come along that can help him elaborate a bit on how the evidence fails to support the story.

Why do You discuss so much about a past. Even some kids in my town knows 9/11 is staged to get green light for Middle East wars. Stop living in past and turn to future USA. War is coming or what would Jon Snow said "Winter is coming"

War between west and east can't be avoided any more and actually preparation for this war is in process now. Russia and China are making moves as well as NATO.

If You want to awake USA read this interesting "fiction" novel (www.amazon.com...) where if You read carefully peaces of puzzle will fit in front of Your eyes. Just a few glimpse:
"Paul Bremer, head of the US occupational authority in Baghdad in May 2003, dissolved the army by decree. That resulted in thousands of well-trained Sunni officers robbed of their livelihood. They were unemployed and in result angry. Dissolving Iraq army, America created its most bitter and intelligent enemies. Many of this Sunni officers went underground. Operating underground in Anbar Province in western Iraq they met Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Zarqawi, a Jordanian by birth, started his fight running a training camp for international terrorist in Afghanistan. During 2003, he gained global notoriety as the mastermind of attacks on the United Nations, the United States troops and Shiite Muslims. This connection leads to the foundation of Islamic State. After the United States realize they can't beat this new force, they established the Sunni Iraqi Sahwa forces or Sunni Awakening tribal forces with vast sums of money and many promises. Sahwa forces with the United States funding and weapons defeated Islamic State by 2006. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi died in a the United States air strike in 2006. Many former Sadam officers by 2006 were captured. They were held from 2006 to 2008 in the United States military's Camp Bucca and Abu Ghraib Prison.
Keeping several thousand potential enemies at the United States military's Camp Bucca was a big mistake by the government. Their new foundation for Islamic State was laid down. The United States put in one place secular Baathist and radical Islamist followers of Zarqawi and kept them for an extended period. Enough time for them to unite and create a new improve version of Islamic State. Although Iraq's Baath Party was secular, the followers of Zarqawi and Baathist shared conviction that control over the masses in Iraq should lie in the hands of a small elite. Elite that should not be answerable to anyone. Because this people rule in the name of a grand plan, legitimized by either God or the glory of Arab history. The secret of Islamic State success lies in the combination of opposites. The fanatical beliefs of one group and the strategic calculations of the other. This new organization got it's new mastermind. His name was Samir Abd Muhammad al-Khlifawi. Most of the people around him know this fellow by his best-known pseudonym, Haji Bakr. He was also known as "Lord of the Shadows". A Large variety of names was precisely part of the plan. The former colonel in the intelligence service of Saddam Hussein's air defense force had been secretly pulling the strings in Islamic State. Former members of the group had often mentioned him as one of its leading figures. For Bakr and other former high-ranking officers, Camp Bucca presented an opportunity to seize power and influence in a smaller circle of jihadists. Former Saddam's officers and their new jihad friends utilized the time spent in Camp Bucca to establish an extensive network of contacts. The top leaders already knew each other for some time. Haji Bakr and couple of officers were part of the tiny secret-service unit attached to the anti-aircraft division. Two other Islamic State leaders were from a small community of Sunni Turkmen in the town of Tal Afar. One of them was a high-ranking intelligence officer as well. Bakr was a nationalist, not an Islamist, stationed at the Habbaniya Air Base. Colonel Samir, as Bakr former Iraq Army friends call him, was highly intelligent, firm and an excellent logistician. In the creation of Islamic State, Bakr was merely modifying what he had learned in the past.He was part of Saddam Hussein's security apparatus, in which no one, not even generals in the intelligence service, could be sure they weren't being spied on. "


"But let's get back to topic. What you don't know is how important for our organization was Boris Jeljcin.“
„Jeljcin?!“, Miroslav said with big surprise.
„He was the key figure in our organization. Yes, he loved to drink and had mistakes, but people don't know what was happening behind the scene. The Club people wanted control of all Russian wealth in their hands. Gorbachov and Jeljcin were selected because they can be manipulated. With them passing rules all the wealth were going in the hands of oligarchs who were western players. But Jeljcin was a double-agent. He played his role for Western interests because he had to. The Club blackmailed Jeljcin with financial frauds and some other smaller stuff. He performed minor fraud but not near as Club have set up. The final stage of Club plan was in 1998. Jeljcin was ordered to step down and appoint Boris Berezovsky as the new leader of Russia. With Berezovsky on the charge with all the oligarchs in power, Club would have total control of Russia. Now we know that their next steps were:
Destruction of nuclear weapons so our army would have no nuclear capability
Cutting the country in several smaller areas for better control
Reducing army to very small force not capable of any offensive actions
Total take over of all financial assets
Complete take over of all natural assets
But years before 1998 we were in secret contact with Jeljcin, and he appointed Putin as his successor in 1998. That come as a shock to Club people. Berezovsky soon after fled Russia to, you guess, London where he continue to work against our interests. We finally got him in 2013 in his villa in London. Also, in 1999, we manage to kill the mastermind of the Club operation for Russia in his Monaco home.
Since that time situation have changed. We are following old Russian saying. It says that Russian have only two allies: the Russian army and Russian navy. "

originally posted by: WeRpeons
I can't speak for anyone else who watched this video, but I know it was rather unsettling.

For those of you who don't have time to watch this video, I can help summarize some of the information these remote viewers saw revolving around the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Towers.

I was jumping around to save time when trying to gather the main points, so if any one needs to correct me on some of the things I've mentioned or missed, feel free to comment or add to it. I would also like to get your take on it.

The documentary was put together by the Far Sight Institute who according to the Director, Courtney Brown, Phd, they use the exact same techniques used by our military for remote viewing. He goes on to say that he fully trusts the two remote viewers in this documentary because many of the thing they have viewed in the past have proven to be very accurate.

I don't know much about Remote Viewing, but I do know they don't know what they're viewing before hand. The documentary uses two separate viewers viewing it at two separate times to help back-up and give some credibility to the accuracy and common visuals each viewer was seeing.

Basically, as far as the Pentagon was concerned, they viewed it not as a plane that flew into the building but a missile or cruise missile that was directly under control by 3 or 4 military men in uniform. What I found puzzling was the viewer stated they were dark and had facial hair (middle eastern men or just U.S. military?). It seemed like it was fired from a military ship. They went on to say it was highly controlled and secret and the men formed like a brotherhood or elite squad. They saw the impact and commotion and emotions involved by the people inside the Pentagon.

As far as the towers were concerned, the viewers saw 3 different groups of highly secret military personnel/business related people who planned and controlled the plane that flew into the towers. He describes seeing one group sitting on an AWAC's plane in front of monitors strapped to their seat. It seemed like they were insinuating the military used unknowing terrorists to carry out the planned terroristic attack used to cover-up secrets and using it as a stepping stone for something that would be planned later.

The viewers saw a small group of military personnel placing clay like explosives around the building supports inside the towers. They said one guy was the main leader and a top advisor to the president. The viewer drew a picture of this guy and said he was in his mid or late 40's and had piercing eyes. He said this guy had no remorse or feelings about killing innocent people. The viewer also saw a secluded conference room with this leader and a handful of men sitting around a large high quality conference table planning 9/11. Nobody was allowed to leave the room with their secret documents except the leader who was managing the meeting. All documents were stored in a safe upon leaving the room. He also mentioned the room had "white noise" to keep anyuone from secretly recording conversations.

If anyone watched the video, who do you think this leader was? I was thinking Donald Rumsfeld, but they said this guy was in the military and Rumsfeld was also much older than what the viewer described.

The viewer also describes a scene of a guy standing at a drafting table with blueprints. He starts describing a thin drawered file cabinet that holds maps and prints. I could relate to this because I taught CAD drafting. What he was describing was a blueprint filing cabinet. He also described the large analog monitors and said they were forging blue prints.

They go on to say they don't know what happened to the people on the planes and whether foreign governments were also involved. They didn't remotely view building 7 or the plane that was either shot down or crashed near Pittsburgh, PA.

I don't know much about remote viewing, but I do know they don't know what they're viewing before hand. If this remote viewing is accurate then it gives additional possibilities that 9/11 was planned by a few very powerful and secret people in our military and possibly a foreign government.

But here's my question. If it was a missle, and not the plane from Dulles, where did all the people on the Dulles flight go? Loved ones reported phone calls from those people stating they were hijacked and going down. Now some people might try explain that as they were killed off and the plane destroyed....but wouldn't some have seen the flight re-directed? and wouldn't the people on the flight have reported that to the loved ones they were talking to? OR the theory the plane and the people on the plane, if it were possible to hide a whole plane and the people in it, were "paid off" by the government to get new lives and live on somewhere else? Seems far fetched. You would have to pay off way too many people, in so many directions, for every person on that plane, and they would all have to go along with it for the past 16 years. OR the plane crashed into the Pentagon and they all died, and that's why no one has heard from them again? The later seems like the most likely event.

a reply to: Gandalf77

The jet exceeded capabilities? So what would the result be? A jet crashing? Oh, flight 77 did crash.


And the government is lying is a FALSE argument. Sores of CIVILIANS witnesses attest to a large commercial jet crashing into the pentagon.

Backed by a radar record that started at the jet’s take off.

Bringing Closure to the 9/11 Pentagon Debate
911truth.org...

These elements all confirm a flight path that is supported by eyewitness accounts, the radar data and the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) data, which was released by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). There are over 62 documented eyewitnesses who saw the plane impact. Fourteen (14) witnesses saw one or more of the light poles struck. Four witnesses saw the right engine/wing hit the generator-trailer, while one witness saw the left engine hit the low concrete wall and break apart. Multiple witnesses traced the passage of the plane as it flew from the Sheraton Hotel (last radar reading) to impact at the Pentagon. There were some initial problems reading the last frame of the FDR data, but the properly decoded FDR data traces the plane’s path all the way from take-off at Dulles Airport to impact at the Pentagon.


The continuous radar data matching the FDR data indicates that assertions of tampering, as well as suggestions that a plane swap took place, are mistaken. There is no reason to doubt that Flight AA 77 traveled from Dulles to its impact at the Pentagon. The radar track of AA 77 is continuous from Dulles to the vicinity of the Sheraton Hotel and is supported by the FDR data. From there, the FDR data and many eyewitnesses tracked the plane all the way to impact at the Pentagon. The eyewitness and physical evidence fully support impact by a large plane with dimensions matching a Boeing 757.

a reply to: Lynzer

There is no credible evidence a missile hit the pentagon.

If a missile was used as a kinetic impact weapon, the 70 foot plus wide entrance whole was way too big.

There is no proof a missile exploded. All the items hit in the construction yard outside the pentagon was pushed towards the pentagon. Not away from the pentagon.

The inside of the pentagon would have exploded out on to the lawn.

An exploding bomb would have cratered the pentagon floor.

The Pentagon Attack: Problems with Theories Alternative to Large Plane Impact
First Published January, 2011. Version 3, April 2016.
By John D. Wyndham (PhD, Physics)

www.scientistsfor911truth.org...

Conclusion
Clearly, the main theory, that a large plane such as a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon, is by far the most plausible theory compared with the alternative theories. The main theory still has some unanswered questions, but it is much stronger than any of the alternative theories.
At present (November 2011) the available evidence points strongly to the main theory, and away from all the alternative theories which would require difficult explanations for staged events.
This analysis does not close the door on this issue or any other of the Pentagon issues55, but leaves it open for further research and evidence as indicated in the tables for each of the different theories. However, the essence of this paper is that the scientific method proves all alternatives to large plane impact virtually impossible. It is hoped that the 9/11 truth movement will accept these current findings and acknowledge the preeminence of the large plane impact theory at this time.
This acceptance would have the following benefits:
 Recognition of the strengths and weaknesses of each theory according to an important principle in the scientific method
 Forestalling of a government disclosure about the Pentagon that undermines credibility of the truth movement and its well-developed WTC research results
 Minimizing public rejection of valid 9/11 evidence when it is presented at the same time as some of the more unlikely Pentagon damage theories.

naw a 16 foot hole....the window ledges let the hole grow with subsequent brick facade coming to the ground by other means actually

I have photgraghs

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Then post them.

a reply to: Lynzer

I think people selectively forget about the cell phone calls from the planes.

It is sad.

Almost dishonors the people who died, or at least that is how I feel about it.

To me, 9/11 was what it was.

The murky bits are due to many years of bad middle eastern policies,
but no conspiracy as far as terrorist hijacking the planes go.
No missiles,just crazy people hell bent on hitting the US.

All these years later, and people still look for a big Gov boogieman when there wasn't one.

a reply to: Darkblade71

If the government lies, it should be exposed.

It’s sad civilians lie and exploit 9/11 to push book sales and websites based on fantasy conspiracy theories.

It’s worse other people with no discernment for truth enable people like Jones, Gage, and Wood to exploit 9/11.

a reply to: neutronflux

I don't doubt the gov. lies quite often and should be exposed when it does.

I don't think 9/11 was a lie though.

As for the remote viewers,
I know RV is possible to an extent,
but I think they read it from the wrong angle.

RVing is a very vague ability,
and what one sees can be twisted into whatever others want to see because it is so vague.
Just my thoughts on RVing.

a reply to: Gandalf77

you don't have to explain the light poles....

the taxi driver...my old buddy....the taxi with the pole in the windscreen.let it out.....said some things are bigger than you.......they got alotta money, just paraphrasin there

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Gonna post the pics you claimed to have or just ignore that.