Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

Originally posted by mikesingh
Do you, Vagabond, if ur a Christian, believe in Christ?

Of course I believe in Christ. I believe he was a mortal man and political figure who stirred the pot too much in a volatile Roman province and was killed for it, as documented by Tacitus (whos words were later doctored to praise him, although undoctored versions do exist).

Why people turned a nationalist political figure into some kind of man-god is beyond my imagination- I do not believe in such things. He was a minor rebel, not a prophet, and not a god.

You're only going by the bible, right?

I do not recall citing the bible as evidence against Indigo's claims. I do recall being lamentably long-winded about the documentary history of the works Indigo cited, and even more lamentably long winded with quite a few analogies and explanations. For my long-windedness, and for that alone, I am sincerely remorseful to everyone except for you.

(Edit to add: I can already hear you typing your reply. Allow me to preempt by inviting you to read any posts which you were planning on calling "citations" of the bible. I used greek and hebrew mythology as a comparrison to show the arbitrary nature of certain propositions. I never cited them as authoritative evidence.)

So for some of you Americans who are delusional megalomaniacs

I don't have to be delusional to be a megalomaniac- I'm really that great. (just kidding).

Thank God, not all Americans are a stick-in-the-mud like you.

I am humbled by your exceedingly logical reproof and the mountain of evidence you have presented. I prostrate myself to the heroes of Hindu mythology and beg the forgiveness of the Aryan people.
(just kidding again)

Look, people change. I've grown up a bit since the days when I would fight with Indigo for thousands of words on end. I believe you folks are wrong, and I have formed this conclusion as the result of intelligent consideration and research, but I'm done taking it seriously. I may contribute in brief from time to time, and I may have a little fun at your expense (that would be now), but that's it.

Edit to add: By the way, I don't know exactly what a "stick in the mud" is, however english has some really fabulous words for people you don't like. U2U me with all of them that you like and I'll volunteer the ones that you missed. I love to teach.

[edit on 12-3-2006 by The Vagabond]

[edit on 12-3-2006 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I do not believe in such things. He was a minor rebel, not a prophet, and not a god.
[edit on 12-3-2006 by The Vagabond]

Hey only one problem there, you called him a rebel, he was a great teacher actually. I was thinking when i saw this abotu christ, I thought you would of been some fool who just goes off the KJV of the bible, which is no good imo. In fact many many of the books in the bible are similar to others that were older then it, that is because the people who wrote some of the books put into the bible plagurized as you might say. The 7 day creation story, adam and eve.ect all taken from earlier text and put into new ideas.

Anyways Nuclear war might explane random genetic disorders (we think there random) but maybe they are just from our ancestors long long time ago who were exposed to massive amounts of radiation and got deformed eh?

Guys,

Not to take any fun out of this, but must confess, there is absolutely so much information on this thread. Great research by everyone.

Cheers

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
Hey only one problem there, you called him a rebel, he was a great teacher actually.

I don't see why he couldn't be both. I'm not so fond of 90% of his "followers" who I have encountered, but yes, the teachings attributed to him have made my best friend (who was my pastor before I began to question religion) a seriously outstanding human being, so fair enough.

He was political though, and he was a rebel. Oh well. If history had gone a little differently, Thomas Jefferson might have been the next Jesus; doesn't make him a bad guy.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by mosca
2) Naacals of the Gobi desert (no one even mentioned the mummies of urumchi and thier sanskirt documents)

I assume you refer to the Tocharians. In 1900 some caves were discovered in Duhuang and other areas along the Silk Road. In 1907 Sir Aurel Stein started finding texts there. Not just Sanskrit was represented there. 15 Languages written in 23 different scripts were found among the manuscripts there, including Syrian and a previously unknown language in the Bhrami script. Many of the texts and works of art were Buddhists, not shocking since Tibet once controlled the area.

The people who settled the place were migrants from Europe. Their hair was red, some accounts say their eyes were blue, their graves contain the "witches hat" worn by Laplanders, their clothing was European- Iron age vintage. They weren't particularly ancient either. Turks drove them out of the area around AD 800 and they went to Afghanastan

First of all this reply is for other people then Vagabond who may by interested and want a second opinion. (Vagabond I am well aware you will disagree with this but too bad we know where you stand so let me say my peace now....)

Tocharian is a name given to one of the two unknown lanquages found among those documents but that was during a much later period of Urumchi mummies. I have a list of the lanquages found there, and how the Indo European ones ("Tocharian") fit into the Indo European family tree. But "Tocharians" is just a name given by sceintists to these mummies cuz they cant explain why there were there and for so long. Even by their innacurate C14 dating method shows Gobi desert occupation of these caucasian peoples over a time span of 4000 to 2500 years. The origianal caucasian peoples (oldest ones found so far) occupied that area when it was a lake and heavily wooded both which is what confuses scientists cuz they never knew there was a lake there b4 that dried up and changed to one of the harshest deserts in the world. Slowly over time it became one of the harshest deserts in the world. I brought this up because ancient Indian texts remember these strange tall white peoples as the Nacaals and indicate they were the original inhabitants of that area long ago right after the flood (and they also say there was a lake there in ancient times-they also indicate many of these peoples migrated westward into europe not the other way around). Niether Chinese or Caucasian scientists have noticed that fact nor care because it goes against what they cannot explain anyways.


much of their clothing was pre bronze age and iron age both but date back to stone age. If you know anything about weaving you can see how many of the oldest mummies patterns is what seems to have started many of the early Celtic patterns that began later in Europe. Weaving can tell a story if you know how, i wont get into the patterns, looms and tools used that predate Europe, and I wont get into a lot because you believe what you want, but there are many things that indicate these mummies may have settled Europe not the other way around and then there was also continued communication between Ancient Europe and Gobi for an extended period of time (both having some same cultural changes in clothing and weaving etc...) that bottom line is seems to a few as though the Gobi mummies were possilby the forefathers of ancient European culture when it is all said and done. Looms, tools, and weights used for weaving, artifacts found in Russia that changed as they headed west and so on. Maybe that is not the case but one thing is clear this is not only a unique glimpse into ancient Europe but also a glimpse into something altogether different and until 1920, unknown.

The tocharian and buddist documents are a pretty newcoming thing into that area, back when the Urumchi people were warred upon and culturally assimilated by China. By then these Urumchi peoples had gone thru several stages of cultural change themselves and were absorbed by buddist China (not peacably either) Hence the silk road came into being but by then it was desert.

Another intersting thing not found in Europe is most of the earliest caucasian mummies were buried with a hallucinogenic drug that is similiar to what the indiginous tribes of south america used on their vision quests. This was worn on a pouch hanging on their neck. The Beauty of Loulan is wearing an eagle feather in her hair, some of the mummies have painted sun symbols on their faces, and from the air the wooden stakes in the ground are in the shape of the sun. Some of the women are wearing something that was part of the mound building society in Denmark 20,000 years ago.

I happen to believe this is a unique glimpse into ancient caucasian history before it was assimilated by Greece and Rome then itself. I guess this may differ from what you beleive but you have yours and I have mine.



When it comes to ancient lanquages here is something else most people don't know. There are more then 8000 Bantu (Zulu) words that are very similiar to ancient European and Latin lanquages. That is enough for many Bantu holy men to beleive black and white also migrated together a long time ago.

There are Incan words (Quecha) that are the same as a Russian people known as the Chuwashen that speak (Tataro-Finnish).

not sure where the telegraph comment came from but it is a fact that the Mahabhatra was quoted in a newspaper interview. Id give you the US scientists name and copy of the interview to compare to the Mahabhatra but that would be to easy. Look it up yourself just don't beleive what is spoonfed to you.

above all no one can say they truly know the truth about anything, maybe we are all wrong all of this basically boils down to opinion anyways. I believe what I beleive, and you beleive what you want. I just always go my own way.

I basically believe wars lead to more wars. Not only that but cultures that do not include caring for the Earth (industrilazation etc..) is not only destroying our home but us as well. Did you know if the rest of the world used as much consumption as the US we would need 3 planet Earths to support us. Maybe we need to slow down and forget about everything but healing our planet...

Christians dont care about tribal roots like indiginous people do, but everyone has them if you look back far enough. And when everyone was tribal the earth was in good shape. You tell me what works for our home!
just my .02 cents

As for ancient nuculear wars, I beleive they were there but it really doesnt matter. It is a power that can kill us all and never should have been made again (didn't we learn the first time) or if this is the first time either way it is way to powerful for a creature as vain, foolish, and un-humble as mankind. Look beneath your feet at the Earth that is real power, it is a living breathing thing that cares for everything and look how we repay her! again just my .02 cents



[edit on 12-3-2006 by mosca]

Originally posted by mosca
(Vagabond I am well aware you will disagree with this but too bad we know where you stand so let me say my peace now....)

You underestimate me. To the extent that we're talking about something tangible that has been discovered and can be studied, I'm not instantly inclined to be disagreeable. The finds in the Gobi happen to intrigue me and if you have sources which I do not have, I would be thrilled to examine them and add them to my knowledge of the subject.

but that was during a much later period of Urumchi mummies. I have a list of the lanquages found there, and how the Indo European ones ("Tocharian") fit into the Indo European family tree. But "Tocharians" is just a name given by sceintists to these mummies cuz they cant explain why there were there and for so long.

Fair enough. Where could I find this information, if you don't mind me asking?

I brought this up because ancient Indian texts remember these strange tall white peoples as the Nacaals and indicate they were the original inhabitants of that area long ago right after the flood

I did not know that. Please do inform me of the names of the texts so that I may look for some translation or description of them.

much of their clothing was pre bronze age and iron age both but date back to stone age.

Correct, to the best of my understanding. The best explanation that I have come across is similiarity based on common techniques that were carried foward after they split.

but there are many things that indicate these mummies may have settled Europe not the other way around

If by Europe you mean Western Europe, then more or less I agree. I'm not aware of anyone worth taking seriously who still claims that Indo-European culture grew up in Europe and then conquered India.
Europe was pupulated from the East (there aren't too many other ways to get to Europe unless you're a good swimmer) and the question as I see it is how far East. Did Proto-Indo-European spring up between the Black and Caspian Seas and East and West; well that's favored at the moment but I realize that methods of interpreting genetic and linguistic evidence tend to be up for debate. Was it from somewhere further East? Well I've only got so many years to live and can only do so many things, so somebody else is going to have to figure that out, and I'll read their work when they finish.

Another intersting thing not found in Europe is most of the earliest caucasian mummies were buried with a hallucinogenic drug

I read that it was ephedra, is that correct?

not sure where the telegraph comment came from

Simple. I'm comparing two religious quotes associated with modern technological advancements to demonstrate that a quote from a scientist does not equal proof of ancient events.

Christians dont care about tribal roots like indiginous people do, but everyone has them if you look back far enough. And when everyone was tribal the earth was in good shape. You tell me what works for our home!
just my .02 cents

At the risk of making this post longer than I want it to be, I will say that at least in theory I agree. We all know we're never going back, but the breakdown of individual freedom and the use of economies as control began with land ownership, so there certainly is an argument that we've devolved as people as much as we've evolved as a civilization.

As for ancient nuculear wars, I beleive they were there but it really doesnt matter.

I used to. I see the appeal.

There seems to be a perception around here that I'm a bad guy. Granted I'm a coarse, vindictive, self-righteous American, but I'm not out to be a racist or a revisionist, and you have said very little that I take strong exception to. Presently you seem to be the kind of person I like to have a civil conversation with about this stuff.

Hi Vagabond,

I'm back to torment you! (Just kiddin'!!)

Ok, I know you'll say it's all bull after reading the article by Hatcher Childress provided in the link below.

Now for Pete's sake, it's just a work of fiction! But for me this could be the truth! It's a question of perception, what? You see I have an open mind on such things. Not terribly dogmatic....like...well...You guessed it!!

ufo.whipnet.org...

vagabond.

sorry it took me so long to respond.

yes it was ephedra.

see the book "mummies of Urumchi" by e j w Barber where you can see not only how "Tocharian" is closely related to Celtic, and other ancient european lanquages but also a list of all Indo-European lanquages and also a "sample list" of how Tocharian words compare with ancient Europe, Greek, Latin etc... Tocharian is closer to Celtic then to Greek Latin Turkik tounques.

I read about the Nacaals in the david hatcher childress book "lost cities of tibet, asia, and china" where his footnote indicates his source (someitmes his footnotes are wrong or inconclusive but other times his sources are right on) and i am in midresearch myself so i can get the name of the ancient Indian document and verify that myself. In the book he doesnt tie them to the mummies but i did...he just ties them into the rama empire.

yes the mummies were buried with ephedra which ties into ancient middle eastern cultures along with south american ones also.

It makes sense to me that the cycles of civilization would always bring about a destructive end. It also makes sense that civilization would need to start anew, with primative technology, but the knowledge to transcribe what it knows. Further, that that knowledge would be taken as holy by those who don't fully understand waht is being said.

We nuked ourselves 10,000 years ago, and we'll do it again in a few weeks.

Have a nice day

Originally posted by CaptainRon
Day by day americans loose their jobs to off shoring in India (India being an IT Superpower now). Microsoft gets its hardest to resolve bugs done by hired indian programmers.

A somewhat old quote from within this long thread, but I still had to comment. Yes, Off-shoring is common and I've felt the blunt end of that stick myself, but it's a far stretch to say that Microsoft gets its hardest bugs resolved through indian programmers. This is simply not true.

ex-msft

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
We nuked ourselves 10,000 years ago, and we'll do it again in a few weeks.

I hate to be the doom-sayer, but we've dodged quite a few bullets in the realm of nuclear war. Perhaps we've developed our weapons too far- or simply produced too many of them- and won't make it this time. Just tossing that out for the sake of being depressing.



Also, Mosca, thanks for getting back to me. I'll check out the books you've mentioned and see if I can't find some indication of Childress' sources. I've been tenatively planning to spend part of Spring Break in the library going over a little bit of Sitchin's work, just for the sake of curiousity, so I'll throw Childress onto the list, assuming i actually get around to it.

wouldn't it be better if we spoke the TRUTH that in reality we don't know # about the world......

i am a firm believer that there have been civilisations that have been around for thousands of years........

if not millions.....

but before i get caught up in conversations how many of you have heard of a guy called michael cremo.....?

check him and his work out........

www.mcremo.com...

what was the tower of babel?

a rocket?

love, peace & TRUTH

Kal-k
The 3rd Side of a Koin
The Beginning & the End...

- oh yeah captain ron i admire you & indigo child for keeping your respect for our culture......keep up the good work....

- too indigo i am supposed to be an indigo too......whatever that means.....

i agree and i gotta say we all gotta remember these ancient civilaztions dissappeared after terrible wars. I too am fascinated but if advanced technology was so great then they would still be here.

We need peace and try using some of this ancient/modern wisdom to heal the earth. If the rest of the world used as much consumption and recources as the united states we would need 3 planet earths. Our timeline is growing shorter.....

many of these survivors went back to spiritual principles (Ancient Rama India and now modern Vedic schools) for example for a reason...The Hopis have been saying all along the 3rd world was more advanced and warning us all (incluiding the UN) our time is running out we need to make a change and gather peace and go back the Earth way but no one is listening...

at least many of these validations can back up the Hopi if applied right

[edit on 31-3-2006 by mosca]

Originally posted by The 3rd Side of a Koin
but before i get caught up in conversations how many of you have heard of a guy called michael cremo.....?

check him and his work out........

www.mcremo.com...

Koin,
Cremo is the Hindu equivalent of Pat Robertson. You gonna go to Pat Robertson for your anthropology lesson?
Here's some stuff for you to read about Cremo and his "work," if you want the truth.
home.austarnet.com.au...

www.talkorigins.org...

www.xmission.com...

www.skeptictank.org...

www.antiquityofman.com...

That last link leads to a page about the book "The Antiquity of Man," which is basically a scientific response to creationists such as Cremo, and others. Also there are links there to other pages with reviews of Cremo's "Forbidden Archaeology" (scroll to bottom of that page.) There's 4 links to these reviews, but one of those links is dead.

That last website also has a huge pseudoscience archive.
Here is a link to that:
www.antiquityofman.com...
I am absolutely certain you'll find fascinating reading at that page.

Harte

Ok, I took about 3-4 days reading the whole 12 pages of the forums related to this topic. I've gone through libraries (that's still continuing) and all I cannot understand is why isn't this topic being handled by the Govt. of India to claim that we have done these things before the Europeans have and we should credit for them?? (by we I mean Indians).

Instead, we're just told that we founded pi and it's still represented in greek. We found the Pythogoras theorem but it still remains pythogoras theorem. Why aren't Indian names appearing at all.??

Credit is not being given, most likely, because humans in general are still just silly enough to cling to ethnocentrism as a source of self-worth (and I'm pretty sure that includes everyone, to a person, at least sometimes and to one degree or another).

If we ever get beyond that, credit may or may not be given. On the positive side, we just might some day get around to something approaching self-transcendence, and in that case it won't particularly matter who invented it, other than that it was a Human Being, or perhaps even that won't matter if we go completely universal in our thinking.

On the lower (and more likely) end, we might at least stick to our own individual merits as opposed to the current group-think tendencies, and in that case nobody who didn't invent it personally or who hasn't done anything significant with it is likely to care if we go too far to the extreme.

I gotta say, despite my tacit endorsement of humanity (which I give by failing to kill myself) I really don't have a high view of it. We are a depressing species- the frustration over credit for those discoveries which have advanced humanity being one minor symptom among many. In a perfect world (that is without foolish and often reactionary impulses such as ethnocentrism) would the credit matter half as much as the mastery of the concept? Kind of sad to think that if you took a survey, it is likely that many would know the name of the Pythagorean theorem but fewer would actually know how to use it.

So in other words, look on the brightside. In many cases (I do not dispute that there are in fact cases where India merits credit, despite my opinions on certain subjects) In many cases, the only reason you get the short shrift you can be assured that it's only because the current paradigm is pathetically narrow.

Originally posted by pradeep
Ok, I took about 3-4 days reading the whole 12 pages of the forums related to this topic. I've gone through libraries (that's still continuing) and all I cannot understand is why isn't this topic being handled by the Govt. of India to claim that we have done these things before the Europeans have and we should credit for them?? (by we I mean Indians).

Because us Europeans would counter that our myths prove that we had nuclear weapons or whatever even earlier

Plus we had the Cauldron of Annwn which was clearly a replicator ala Star Trek

I would agree with that explanation. However, I would like to put all the information given above into the TinWiki that ATS has created. I'll begin and if possible, can some one help me??

Pradeep

This may be viewed with a grain of salt, but consider this as some support for the ancient date of some of the texts:

Mt. Sumeru or Mt. Meru, was a direct reference to Enki's Sumerian ziggurat. That dates the earliest references to that mystical "mountain" to the time of ancient Sumer.

Originally posted by undo
This may be viewed with a grain of salt, but consider this as some support for the ancient date of some of the texts:

Mt. Sumeru or Mt. Meru, was a direct reference to Enki's Sumerian ziggurat. That dates the earliest references to that mystical "mountain" to the time of ancient Sumer.

It quite probable (he says, putting his serious hat back on) that there were trade and cultural links between Sumer and the Harappan civilisation. So that makes sense