The Cross and the Israel of God

That's where if becomes very confusing. On one hand all must accept Jesus as He said no man come to the Father but through Me. Now on the other hand God made a covenant with Jacob and God does not break His promises, EVER.

So Jews who don't accept Christ, are they still going to be saved? I do think when Jesus returns, the land of Israel will be a prominent place. I'm sure the mortal planet as we know it will be vastly different, beyond human comprehension but this particular area will be special.

a reply to: maybee

Well if they die before believing on Christ before the gathering of the saints to Jesus in the clouds and the Great tribulation starts, no.

But if they believe on Christ after that event takes place, and they overcome the wicked one, they endure unto the end of the seven years, if they hide and feed each other for that time, And they keep the commandments, love one another. Yes they will enter into the kingdom as his kings and priests forever.

a reply to: maybee
I think the answer to the confusion is to compare what Paul says about God's relations with Abraham, earlier in this letter (ch3).
God made a promise to Abraham, yes, but the real key to the on-going relationship is the faith in which Abraham received this promise.
Therefore, Paul says, all those who have faith are the real children of Abraham and the real recipients of the promise.
I think the covenant with Jacob needs to be seen in the same light. Ultimately, any Jews who are saved will be saved by their faith, like everybody else.
Does this need to be consciously faith in the person of Christ? Well, Abraham did not know the name of Jesus, and all the "men of faith" listed in Hebrews ch11 did not know the name of Jesus. So I'm happy to leave that question open and accept the possibility that faith in their God will be enough.

But the one central thing that is needed is faith. TRUST, in God. If you look carefully, that theme runs through the whole Bible from beginning to end.
That one requirement makes things very simple, as long as people don't try to introduce unnecessary complications.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
And there is a difference to those who "walk after this rule, and the Israel of God." You have just not yet to learn it. It will come in time.

The whole structure of those verses shows that he is only talking about one group.
He has just said that only ONE thing has any value for us, namely the "new creation" which follows on from the Cross of Christ.
So it follows that he is only promising mercy and peace to the ONE group, namely those who accept and live by what he has just said.

It may be that I am ahead of you, rather than behind you, in grasping what Paul is really trying to say in these verses.
I need to give you a warning here.
A couple of threads back, I was drawing attention to the modern problem of Protestant "neo-legalism".
I am becoming convinced that the creation of unnecessary and artificial distinctions is one of the symptoms of neo-legalism, especially when the distinctions are formed by following the letter of a given text and ignoring the spirit which lies behind it.
I think you have drawn some of your teaching from people who have been infected by this neo-legalism, and you need to break away from it.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Under the Kingdom Gospel it is...
Under the Gospel of the grace of God it is ...

Again , this is pure neo-legalism.
It is an artificial and unnecessary distinction created by paying attention in a very literalistic way to the accidental order of phrases. This is how our modern legalists work.

Whereas;
"God is one, and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith".
Romans ch3 v30

You do know who Heresirach is. so don't feed the Troll

As you saw above, I had my own thoughts on the probability, but I also promised fair dealing as long as he behaved himself.

a reply to: DISRAELI


That was a very astute observation, your last comment. I totally agree. Every problem the church has could be summed up in that one term. Neo-legalism.

I have a harsher term. I call it theo-fascism.

a reply to: DISRAELI


Paul and Jesus insistence on the Holy Spirit is because as the Spirit of Truth it takes that veil away.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
Thank you for those comments.
You will find that the next few threads are on the words of Jesus.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I will share something that was lost in the version you quoted on Romans 3:30

You can use Hebrew 11 to check what I say along with Eph 2:8,9. Many times, not always, but the preserved word used the term "By faith" you can see some action needed to be taken on behalf of the one exercising faith. When the term "Through Faith" it was left to God doing something supernatural.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

I believe that the Israel of God will be the Believing Children of Jacob after the Rapture that have accepted the One the Lord has Sent. It sure looks like this will be 100% of them in the Millennial Kingdom.

I believe that Salvation has always been a matter of God's Grace.

The Lord gave the promise of the Coming One in the Garden.
Those that died believing in that Promise were in Abraham's Bosom when Jesus descended there after death to announce their release from captivity.

Having said that there certainly was a huge element of Obedience in the OT. The Temple, Sacrifices, and Feasts and everything associated with them were certainly a part of the OT salvation depending on where they were located on the earth. There very well could have been some of Noah's descendants that went to the Far East and maintained the truth of the Lord's promises passed on down thru their forefathers. Have zero evidence of this however.

Since the Cross, Obedience is Missing as a condition of Justification. Obedience, however, is incredibly important as a mechanism to demonstrate the Saving Faith that we have in our hearts. Obedience also does earn rewards such as Crowns, Accolades, Kingdom Responsibilities, etc. This is what Paul was "Striving" for in his athletic parallelisms. The Prodigal Son never lost his Sonship with his disobedience. Likewise, the Lord's Prodigals also do not loose their Sonship with disobedience, however sooner or later they do find out that their Father's arm is never too short to bring a Prodigal to his senses and turn towards home. The Lord has a 100% retrieval rate for His straying sheep. They may be pretty beat up by their chosen worldly Prodigal pigpen, however.

In the Post-Rapture economy there again will also be an element of Obedience that will be required. They will also be required to maintain their faith until their end. An Indwelling Holy Spirit will no longer seal them as a guarantee. He will certainly still be active, just not with that particular ministry.

originally posted by: RandallB
An Indwelling Holy Spirit will no longer seal them as a guarantee. He will certainly still be active, just not with that particular ministry.

On the contrary, I think the sealing of the believers in Revelation ch7 is still the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
That is how they are protected against receiving the mark of the Beast, and against the despair, the eagerness to die, which is characteristic of the fifth trumpet.
I see no reason why there should be more than one kind of sealing or more than one kind of faith-relationship with God.

True obedience follows on from faith, necessarily (Hebrews ch11 v6).
In every part of the New Testament, whether Jesus, John, Paul, or James, there is a demand for both faith and obedience, with faith always coming first in order of time.
For that reason I would argue that even Adam's disobedience was the consequence of insufficient faith. Submission of the will requires trust, which is faith.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Did you read my link, its awesome! I made a story and a picture.. Usually i have a very hard time writing a story, but i did it for you! And then i used science and a calendar! But its okay if you want to read a book as fiction..

This thread is one of a series of threads on Galatians, and they will be covered by an Index thread next weekend.

Israel is a literal nation that God will save and they will be his nation of priests and kings.

I believe that the Israel of God is the believing Children of Israel/Jacob of whom Jesus Christ is their ruler and the ruler of all the earth forever.

To much rest on God fulfilling his promises to Israel and they have not happened yet.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
I believe that God has fulfilled and is fulfilling his promises through his grace towards "the children of promise".
It is question of gaining a spiritual understanding, rather than a carnal understanding, of what the promises mean.
As Christians, we need to be reading the Old Testament without the veil.

a reply to: DISRAELI

most of the old Testament belongs to the children of Jacob. But what belongs to Gentiles is revealed in the Books to the churches Romans through Philemon.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: DISRAELI

most of the old Testament belongs to the children of Jacob. But what belongs to Gentiles is revealed in the Books to the churches Romans through Philemon.

Actually, the Holy Book of Israel has been adopted by all TRUE followers of Yeshua.

You should not be telling people that you don't believe that the Bible is for everyone. It's bad for the lie you tell people that you are a Christian. You tell a Christian that the Bible is only for Israelites and you have lost all credibility.

Which I have never been fooled into believing by you. You are not any kind of Christian. You are a walking cluster #! :-)_ of confusion and madness. The KJV has driven you insane with visions of revenge on Israel and your racism shows by using the book that united Christian and Jew to attempt a divide.

It won't work

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: DISRAELI

most of the old Testament belongs to the children of Jacob. But what belongs to Gentiles is revealed in the Books to the churches Romans through Philemon.

And the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation is equally for the followers of Christ. You are some kind of vile swill to be actively seeking to divide up the Bible between Jew section, Greek section (you think Gentile means non-Jew, it is usually supposed to simply read Greek) and Jew section.

It's the thinking of a biggot.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

When you make the word gentile mean something when it is a word to describe that which isn't something (Israelite or Jew) then you are linguistically as well as factually in error.

Ethnos is what usually gets translated as gentiles but it means "the nations" as in "all nations" would be more accurate.

Goy is the Hebrew word that is translated as gentiles and means, more or less, cattle. Needless to say it isn't a term designed with the intention of flattery so the word gentile with its lack of true meaning is inserted rather spuriously and for the sake of political correctness.

Gentile simply means not Israelite/Jewish and could just as easily describe someone from the sub-continent of India, a Greek living in Jerusalem or a tribe in the Amazon throughout the entire history of mankind. It only means NOT descendants of Israel. It doesn't give any other meaning than that. So unless you are bragging about not being Jewish you have literally no reason to use it.

The oldest document known, dated to the first century AD and also showing clear Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls community) thus James and the Apostles influenced, is the Didache or the teachings of the 12 Apostles.

Didache

This document not only dispells any notion of Greek exclusion by the true Apostolic church but it includes everyone and states emphatically that there is one way to God for all man and the difference between finding the way to God is no different for an Israelite/Jew than it is for any nation.

That it is not official canon is actually kind of unexplainable, I will not even attempt to speculate. But it was most likely the first official document of the Apostolic church. I bet it was in use at the time of the 70 AD expulsion of the Israelites.