The Cross and the Israel of God

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: DISRAELI

No offence old friend, but I am yet to see a religious thread, that has any point.

It's all a scam!!

Perhaps do as I do. I don't believe much of what Homer wrote in his iliad and odyssey, but his stories are fascinating, and I enjoy talking about them occasionally. Same with the bible. I see it as mostly a work of fiction, but I think some of the writers were brilliant, however I may feel about their theology. So I can talk about it, whether I believe it's a "scam" or not.

Also, give Disraeli a break here. He is not one to stir up controversy and debate on this site, like some of us, and his threads do no harm, nor are they focused on hating those who don't believe as he does. He simply teaches and discusses his faith with others of like mind. So when I comment in his threads, I try to stay on topic, and add to the discussion, and he's nice enough to tolerate me.

The topic is "the israel of God". What have you to add to his teaching of what Paul means by that in Galatians?

a reply to: DISRAELI

S&F

It is obvious that the Lord has given you one of the seven spirits spoken about in Isaiah 11-2 & 3 and in the book of I Corinthians chapter 12 ....... "word of knowledge"

I look forward to your next thread.

God bless you,

Your brother in Christ,

DS

a reply to: DISRAELI

Do you think that this teaching is the most abused teaching of Paul? It seems to be his main message and a departure from "by your fruits you shall know them" as taught by Jesus that you actually need to be a good person, not "just believe."

Why I ask is it appears to be that Christians run the gamut from those who think that the Law is dead to those who actually believe as Jesus taught, that it is fullfilled by obeying 2 commandments. I assume you know them.

Paul cuts God out, the most important one. He seems to be setting his own rules and they are counter to Christ's teachings.

In addition to teaching the most abused teaching of the Holy Bible, justification by faith, he teaches that the Law is a burden. Jesus didn't make the Law a burden, he simplified it to the 2 commandments.

Is it too much for Paul, this one extra commandment to love God first? It reads wrong to me that he doesn't teach it. You are not fulfilling the two commandments of Jesus by fulfilling one, or Jesus would have taught it that way.

And justification by faith also reads wrong. Listen to what Jesus says about salvation.

Im going to paraphrase because I don't feel like thumbing through my bible.

" Unless one is baptized with the Spirit he will not see the Kingdom."

Justification by faith doesn't seem to baptize with the Spirit according to Jesus.

In fact, it's used as a licence to sin. I am OK because I believe Jesus died for my sins. I don't have to be a good person, I believe in Jesus.


I'm a little all over but I think you can piece together what I am saying. Basically, that Paul taught one thing to a specific people thousands of years ago that has nothing to do with the teaching of Christ, and everyone today is following it to the grave even though we, unlike Paul's Gentiles, actually have the words of Christ to follow.

But people don't utilize them. And in most cases, disregard them as only applying to Jews or something equally horrendous.

I understand that this is not the fault of Paul, but the church.

Do you think we should be ignoring the teachings of Jesus, in favor of Paul?

a reply to: DISRAELI

Please don't think I am trying to start trouble or anything like that, I believe this legitimately is a cause for concern among the followers of Christ. That Paul has become the focal point and Jesus relegated to a secondary player.

But I also am interested in your opinion because from reading your op you seem knowledgeable.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
Do you think that this teaching is the most abused teaching of Paul? It seems to be his main message and a departure from "by your fruits you shall know them" as taught by Jesus that you actually need to be a good person, not "just believe."

No, just the most misunderstood.
This is not the place to go into a wide-ranging comparison of Jesus and Paul, so I will just say this;
Jesus taught that faith in himself comes first (in order of time), as I will be demonstrating over the next few weeks.
The is followed by doing what God wants, which can be described as "showing fruit". The key to this is being baptised in the Holy Spirit and acting in love.
Paul taught that faith in Jesus comes first, in order of time.
This is followed by doing what God wants. The key to this is receiving the Holy Spirit, which in turn motivates us to act in love, the result being what he calls "the fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians ch5, as discusssed in my previous thread, q.v.).
In other words, they are saying the same thing, and the alleged "conflict" between them is contrived and artificial.

In fact, it's used as a licence to sin.

Paul makes it very clear in the previous chapter that it is not a licence to sin, and explains why not.
I'm not going to repeat all the explanations in my previous thread, but you can refer back to it.

The Spirit and the flesh

originally posted by: Heresiarch
Please don't think I am trying to start trouble or anything like that.

I must admit that as soon as I saw your post, I went to check whether AngraMainyu had been banned (and he has).
If you are the person I think you might be, you will know why I did that.
Nevertheless, I will take this new approach at face value as long as you are behaving yourself.

a reply to: DISRAELI


Good thoughts. I am more curious about the greatest commandment being excluded from his teachings.

I know that most people will respond with " but he was saying that it is fulfilled by obeying 'love your neighbor' "

But I fundamentally disagree with that. The very fact that it was spoken of by Jesus in addition to love your neighbor should be sufficient a reason not to exclude it.

Again, I am curious what you think. I am not against anyone or anything, I am just interested.

I agree that it is the most misunderstood teaching of Paul.

Misunderstanding can be fatal.

a reply to: Heresiarch
It is at least implicit in everything he says, and he certainly puts God uppermost in everything he says.
Just go through the letters, looking for the word "God", and then see what you find in the rest of the sentence. That will place beyond doubt how much he loves and values his God.
If he doesn't quote the actual commandment, that's just a verbal quibble of no importance.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It could be important. If people assume it to mean that love your God is less important than love your neighbors as a result of his not mentioning it.

I guess not many people believe that though. As long as they don't, it is not such a big deal I suppose.

I just think it would have been better if he didn't exclude it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

How was Paul crucified to the world, and the world crucified to him?

I find that an odd, even grandiose thing to say. What do you think this is supposed to mean?

a reply to: Heresiarch
This goes back to his earlier statement that he has died "together with" Christ - ch2 vv19-20.
I was outlining this idea in a previous thread;

Paul died to the law (ch2 v19). That is, his life was detached from the sphere where the law operates.
He and the law are now on opposite sides of the death-barrier, so that it no longer holds any authority over him.

If we ask how Paul died to the law, the answer is that he so died when Christ was crucified.
Along with every other believer, Paul has been crucified together with [SYNESTAUROMAI] Christ.
In effect, he has been carried along by Christ, through his death and into his resurrection (v20).

The logic is;
Christ died on the cross.
But I am "in Christ", which means he carries me through everything that he has experienced.
So I was crucified when Christ was crucified.
If Christ has died and risen from the dead, then I have died and risen from the dead.
This leads on to the explanation I gave in the opening post;

The point is that he has been included in the event.
He has been “crucified together with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (ch2 v20).
Therefore he is “dead to” everything that belongs to the old life, and they no longer concern him.
He is “dead to” the Law of Moses (ch2 v19).
He is “dead to” the passions of the flesh (ch5 v24).
And he now declares that he is “dead to” the whole present world, and vice-versa.

"Vice-versa", because I am still living in the normal sense, so saying "these things are dead to me" is another way of describing the separation.

It is not grandiose, because he does not see it as unique to himself.
It is the spiritual experience of every believer- "Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh, with its passions and desires"- Galatians ch5 v24
"All of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised INTO his death. We were buried therefore with him... so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" - Romans ch6 vv2-4.
This experience is what it means to be a Christian.

a reply to: DISRAELI


Good explanation. Thanks for clarifying.

I thought of the temple veil tearing upon Jesus death on the cross. Taking away the old system. I've been doing some reading on it this morning. That event in itself is most supernatural and amazing.
The veil as I understand was so thick and heavy that it took as many as 200+ men to lift it into place.
I enjoy reading your threads tho I have to re-read some as my simple mind, a bit to comprehend.

a reply to: maybee
If I have made some of them difficult, I apologise. That is a failing.
The intention is to make things easier to understand than they were before, and I hope I normally succeed.

Yes, the breaking of the veil is about gaining access to God, which is accomplished (Paul would say) by our relation with Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks. I have to re-read lots of things not just your threads

Tho I have always been taught, as a Christian that the Jewish people are GOD's chosen. I wonder if the land of Israel, the physical land is what is chosen.

I've read about it being a supernatural oddity unlike any on the Earth. I by no means understand it all but that's kind of my take on it.

a reply to: maybee
The traditional Christian understanding, based on this kind of teaching in Paul and elsewhere in the New Testament, has always been that God's people, through the inclusion of the Gentiles, has become the church.

The re-focussing of attention on the idea of the Jews as God's chosen people is more recent. To my mind, it is the result of a modern tendancy to read the Old Testament in an over-literal way and therefore miss the point of the message of the New Testament. It's one aspect of the problem of Protestant "neo-legalism", which I was looking at a couple of threads back.

"The promise is given to the physical land" is one of the things which the Jews believed, because there was a "veil over their minds" as they read the scriptures. Paul says that knowledge of Christ takes the veil away (2 Corinthians ch3 vv15-16). I think the true "land" of the believer, seen without the veil, is the living eternally in the presence of God, as described at the end of Revelation.

a reply to: DISRAELI

i wanted to share a story with you

A blast from the past

a reply to: Lazarus Short

glad to see some noticed the truth about Paul.

AldarKose and Heresiarch may be a couple of other of you know who's new ATS user names.

a reply to: DISRAELI

They can be saved today under the current gospel. But one must always remember the nation of Israel is special to God and he has a promise to them they shall have the kingdom that rules over the whole world with Jesus over the house of Jacob forever.

And there is a difference to those who "walk after this rule, and the Israel of God." You have just not yet to learn it. It will come in time.

a reply to: DISRAELI Jesus taught that faith in himself comes first (in order of time), as I will be demonstrating over the next few weeks.
The is followed by doing what God wants, which can be described as "showing fruit". The key to this is being baptised in the Holy Spirit and acting in love.
Paul taught that faith in Jesus comes first, in order of time.
This is followed by doing what God wants. The key to this is receiving the Holy Spirit, which in turn motivates us to act in love, the result being what he calls "the fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians ch5, as discusssed in my previous thread, q.v.).

Under the Kingdom Gospel it is Faith first, doing what God wanted Israel to do which was follow his commandments, then they would get the gift of the Holy Ghost and in the end get Salvation.

Under the Gospel of the grace of God it is faith First, get Justified and saved, Baptised into Christ, get the Holy Ghost as a seal of redemption, then do what God wants but it wasn't following the law of Moses it was living a new life in Christ.

You see the order is a bit different in Paul's teaching and it is important to compare all of Paul's teaching especially from Romans, because Romans is the doctrines for this current dispensation. Remember that the Holy Ghost teacheth by comparing spiritual things to Spiritual.

Faith, works and Grace are all parts of salvation in any dispensation. Under the gospel of the Kingdom is it Faith, do the Works of the law and in the end get the grace. Under the gospel of the grace of God it is Faith, get the grace and do good works.

You do know who Heresirach is. so don't feed the Troll