Leak of German Company's Synthetic Oil Production Technology - $12 a barrel oil coming soon!

a reply to: StargateSG7

The problem is the energy input. This is solar energy converted, inefficiently, into chemical energy. How much can you get? Basic physics sets a strong upper limit.

They've been looking at algal biodiesel for a while and the economic just isn't there yet.

It's very unfortunate, because the climate change from global warming is now really starting to heat up, and it will go much much further.

a reply to: StargateSG7

We need zero point energy, but I'd settle for Thorium reactors.

originally posted by: mbkennel
a reply to: StargateSG7

The problem is the energy input. This is solar energy converted, inefficiently, into chemical energy. How much can you get? Basic physics sets a strong upper limit.

They've been looking at algal biodiesel for a while and the economic just isn't there yet.

It's very unfortunate, because the climate change from global warming is now really starting to heat up, and it will go much much further.

----

Unfortunately business is based upon PROFIT...not just huge profit
but ANY profit and sometimes to make that profit businesses will
spend inordinate amounts of time and money to get that profit
IF there is ENOUGH profit to be gained in a short period of time.

I'm just doing basic math and while you are correct that there
are HARD physical limits, based upon what I am reading there
is a ENOUGH efficiency in this chemical process to make
it worthwhile to do. I was initially wondering about how the
bacteria were to be grown and fed in such large quantities
but after reading about the properties SPECIFICALLY attributed
to Cyano-Bacteria, I now understand why that type was chosen
as the base feedstock AND why I suspect Iron Oxide is the cheap
metal catalyst. Cost-wise, if they get the bacteria quanities they
are saying they can grow, then the gross energy input vs. output
is MOSTLY borne by the solar mirror inputs which is basically
free in the southern hemisphere! The gross non-catalyst
input is CO2 infused seawater which could be as high as
14% composition in the denser and colder northern climate
surface seawater and as much as 8% composition in the
hotter southern climes.

Again, I don't see any impediment science-wise in this process.
It would be a matter of buying 20 to 25 used bulker ships at
10 million to 35 million dollars a pop on the used market.

And based upon earnings of 240 million dollars a day
at $12 a barrel over 20 million barrels a day, I suspect
bacteria feedstock costs and crew/machine costs
would be less than 20 million dollars a day so the
gross profit is over 220 million dollars a day
or 80 billion dollars a year which is about less
than a third the size of Chevron/Texaco. It sounds
like a lot of money...BUT...when you compare it
against the size of and profit of the top 5 oil
and gas producers IT IS **NOT** A LOT OF MONEY!

Still I will take 220 million dollars a day ---
That's a LOT of pizza, sambucca and vacations!!!!!

a reply to: StargateSG7

Thank You!

Is it really possible physically to make 20 million Barrels a day? that sounds really high to me.

Isn't that like 1 trillion gallons a day?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Is it really possible physically to make 20 million Barrels a day? that sounds really high to me.

Isn't that like 1 trillion gallons a day?

Actually if you read my earlier comments, I worked
it out to about 1.1 billion gallons or around 10 to 16 supertanker
fulls of the combined cyano-bacteria and hydrocarbon sludge
that would be involved in such a venture.

It's NOT actually all that much...just buy cheap bulkers
on used ship market and you're good to go!

Saudio Arabia does 11 million barrels a day
of production on its own so it's NOT totally out of line!

a reply to: StargateSG7

I wonder WHO the principles are and if they have hired body guards yet?

I'd be quaking in my boots at this leak --- Russia is gonna
send Spetsnaz operatives after them and Saudi Arabia,
Iran or Bahrain is gonna send whole goon squads of assassins
to get'em all once they find out about this!

They're all toast in a few months!

OMG! a big metor hits Germany!
feel so sorry for them.........


with the price of oil so low
I think some thing big is going to happen.
I just hope they dont use the world war card again.
but it looks like they will.

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Is it really possible physically to make 20 million Barrels a day? that sounds really high to me.

Isn't that like 1 trillion gallons a day?

Actually if you read my earlier comments, I worked
it out to about 1.1 billion gallons or around 10 to 16 supertanker fulls of the combined cyano-bacteria and hydrocarbon sludge that would be involved in such a venture.
It's NOT actually all that much...just buy cheap bulkers on used ship market and you're good to go!
Saudio Arabia does 11 million barrels a day of production on its own so it's NOT totally out of line!

There are 42 gallons in a barrel of petroleum so it is more like 840 million gpd. Saudi Arabia PUMPS 11 million bpd; they do not make it. You would need many years just to design and build the floating plants as they would have to survive hurricanes and salt corrosion while not blowing themselves up or leaking cyanogoo all over. Anything using biomass has a problem in that if the bugs die, you are down until the culture can recover. If the cyano bacteria need light, you are again limited to a few hundred milligrams of bacteria per liter. How many liters of culture will you need and how will you feed the bugs. There is also a long wait for pressure vessels to build the plants as not many places can construct such. A full sized synthetic fuel plant is probably more like 50,000 gpd and will set you about $2 billion plus for known technology on dry land. 400 such plants would be $800 billion plus ROI and then you will need fuels/syncrude transport shuttles, parts ships, support ships, and such. You will probably also have to distill the water you need as photothermolysis of salt water will likely also produce chlorine. Key to any synthetic fuels plan is cost of hydrogen. That is the one thing that determines the costs of everything else. If they have a hydrogen production process that works better and costs less, they shouldn't waste it on this pipe dream. You likely will not have enough deck space for the mirrors given the volume of hydrogen and low efficiency of thermolysis.

This thing is so far fetched that I think it is a prank.

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Is it really possible physically to make 20 million Barrels a day? that sounds really high to me.

Isn't that like 1 trillion gallons a day?

Actually if you read my earlier comments, I worked
it out to about 1.1 billion gallons or around 10 to 16 supertanker fulls of the combined cyano-bacteria and hydrocarbon sludge that would be involved in such a venture.
It's NOT actually all that much...just buy cheap bulkers on used ship market and you're good to go!
Saudio Arabia does 11 million barrels a day of production on its own so it's NOT totally out of line!

There are 42 gallons in a barrel of petroleum so it is more like 840 million gpd. Saudi Arabia PUMPS 11 million bpd; they do not make it. You would need many years just to design and build the floating plants as they would have to survive hurricanes and salt corrosion while not blowing themselves up or leaking cyanogoo all over. Anything using biomass has a problem in that if the bugs die, you are down until the culture can recover. If the cyano bacteria need light, you are again limited to a few hundred milligrams of bacteria per liter. How many liters of culture will you need and how will you feed the bugs. There is also a long wait for pressure vessels to build the plants as not many places can construct such. A full sized synthetic fuel plant is probably more like 50,000 gpd and will set you about $2 billion plus for known technology on dry land. 400 such plants would be $800 billion plus ROI and then you will need fuels/syncrude transport shuttles, parts ships, support ships, and such. You will probably also have to distill the water you need as photothermolysis of salt water will likely also produce chlorine. Key to any synthetic fuels plan is cost of hydrogen. That is the one thing that determines the costs of everything else. If they have a hydrogen production process that works better and costs less, they shouldn't waste it on this pipe dream. You likely will not have enough deck space for the mirrors given the volume of hydrogen and low efficiency of thermolysis.

This thing is so far fetched that I think it is a prank.

Kinda hard to argue against your analysis,
but I wouldn't put it past business people
to give it a try. I thought 20 million barrels
a day was a bit high myself but who knows
what these people think.

If it IS real, then I still say they're dead meat
cuz oil producting nations in the middle east
ain't gonna let anyone live who could possibly
threaten their financial existence.

Interesting note about photothermolysis,
I did not think to understand that there would
also be breakdown of the Sodium Chloride (salt)
in salt water into chorine gas and highly reactive
sodium! THAT'S KINDA DANGEROUS!!!!

I guess we are out of luck until august to see
what will be announced in the public sphere
IF this is real. I'm still curious WHO these people are!

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Is it really possible physically to make 20 million Barrels a day? that sounds really high to me.

Isn't that like 1 trillion gallons a day?

Actually if you read my earlier comments, I worked
it out to about 1.1 billion gallons or around 10 to 16 supertanker fulls of the combined cyano-bacteria and hydrocarbon sludge that would be involved in such a venture.
It's NOT actually all that much...just buy cheap bulkers on used ship market and you're good to go!
Saudio Arabia does 11 million barrels a day of production on its own so it's NOT totally out of line!

There are 42 gallons in a barrel of petroleum so it is more like 840 million gpd. Saudi Arabia PUMPS 11 million bpd; they do not make it. You would need many years just to design and build the floating plants as they would have to survive hurricanes and salt corrosion while not blowing themselves up or leaking cyanogoo all over. Anything using biomass has a problem in that if the bugs die, you are down until the culture can recover. If the cyano bacteria need light, you are again limited to a few hundred milligrams of bacteria per liter. How many liters of culture will you need and how will you feed the bugs. There is also a long wait for pressure vessels to build the plants as not many places can construct such. A full sized synthetic fuel plant is probably more like 50,000 gpd and will set you about $2 billion plus for known technology on dry land. 400 such plants would be $800 billion plus ROI and then you will need fuels/syncrude transport shuttles, parts ships, support ships, and such. You will probably also have to distill the water you need as photothermolysis of salt water will likely also produce chlorine. Key to any synthetic fuels plan is cost of hydrogen. That is the one thing that determines the costs of everything else. If they have a hydrogen production process that works better and costs less, they shouldn't waste it on this pipe dream. You likely will not have enough deck space for the mirrors given the volume of hydrogen and low efficiency of thermolysis.

This thing is so far fetched that I think it is a prank.

Kinda hard to argue against your analysis,
but I wouldn't put it past business people
to give it a try. I thought 20 million barrels
a day was a bit high myself but who knows
what these people think.

If it IS real, then I still say they're dead meat
cuz oil producting nations in the middle east
ain't gonna let anyone live who could possibly
threaten their financial existence.

Interesting note about photothermolysis,
I did not think to understand that there would
also be breakdown of the Sodium Chloride (salt)
in salt water into chorine gas and highly reactive
sodium! THAT'S KINDA DANGEROUS!!!!

I guess we are out of luck until august to see
what will be announced in the public sphere
IF this is real. I'm still curious WHO these people are!

In water, you would not get metallic sodium, you would get sodium ion.

This whole thing is such gibberish that I am claiming prank. April 1 is not far away.

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Is it really possible physically to make 20 million Barrels a day? that sounds really high to me.

Isn't that like 1 trillion gallons a day?

Actually if you read my earlier comments, I worked
it out to about 1.1 billion gallons or around 10 to 16 supertanker fulls of the combined cyano-bacteria and hydrocarbon sludge that would be involved in such a venture.
It's NOT actually all that much...just buy cheap bulkers on used ship market and you're good to go!
Saudio Arabia does 11 million barrels a day of production on its own so it's NOT totally out of line!

There are 42 gallons in a barrel of petroleum so it is more like 840 million gpd. Saudi Arabia PUMPS 11 million bpd; they do not make it. You would need many years just to design and build the floating plants as they would have to survive hurricanes and salt corrosion while not blowing themselves up or leaking cyanogoo all over. Anything using biomass has a problem in that if the bugs die, you are down until the culture can recover. If the cyano bacteria need light, you are again limited to a few hundred milligrams of bacteria per liter. How many liters of culture will you need and how will you feed the bugs. There is also a long wait for pressure vessels to build the plants as not many places can construct such. A full sized synthetic fuel plant is probably more like 50,000 gpd and will set you about $2 billion plus for known technology on dry land. 400 such plants would be $800 billion plus ROI and then you will need fuels/syncrude transport shuttles, parts ships, support ships, and such. You will probably also have to distill the water you need as photothermolysis of salt water will likely also produce chlorine. Key to any synthetic fuels plan is cost of hydrogen. That is the one thing that determines the costs of everything else. If they have a hydrogen production process that works better and costs less, they shouldn't waste it on this pipe dream. You likely will not have enough deck space for the mirrors given the volume of hydrogen and low efficiency of thermolysis.

This thing is so far fetched that I think it is a prank.

Kinda hard to argue against your analysis,
but I wouldn't put it past business people
to give it a try. I thought 20 million barrels
a day was a bit high myself but who knows
what these people think.

If it IS real, then I still say they're dead meat
cuz oil producting nations in the middle east
ain't gonna let anyone live who could possibly
threaten their financial existence.

Interesting note about photothermolysis,
I did not think to understand that there would
also be breakdown of the Sodium Chloride (salt)
in salt water into chorine gas and highly reactive
sodium! THAT'S KINDA DANGEROUS!!!!

I guess we are out of luck until august to see
what will be announced in the public sphere
IF this is real. I'm still curious WHO these people are!

In water, you would not get metallic sodium, you would get sodium ion.

This whole thing is such gibberish that I am claiming prank. April 1 is not far away.

---

Forgive me if my chemistry is a bit rusty but after the
Sodium Ion is freed and this "process" introduces carbon
compounds into the mix so won't we get Sodium BiCarbonate? (aka Baking Soda)

And does that not seem to follow what is said in the news release
where a carbonate is released which can re-constitued into another
compound using "oil cracking" technology to form long or short chain hydrocarbons?

...hmmm....me thinks YOU have stumbled upon their secret!
Not Ferric Oxide as the Catalyst as what I envisioned it to be
but rather Sodium BiCarbonate!

WHOOOOOAAAAAA !!!!!! I think the secret is out now!!!!!!!!

ooohboy! Time for us to hire some body guards!

a reply to: StargateSG7

Why not both?

An iron oxide compound and a bicarbonate? Perhaps a looping cycle that swaps back and forth between iron oxide and iron bicarbonate, and sodium hydroxide and sodium bicarbonate? (Also exchanging hydrogen in places here and there from the water or other chemistry.) There's probably something else going on there with solar heating as well to help drive one of the reactions. So you're using one reaction to pull a bio-lipid apart and stick it on a hydrocarbon chain, and then another to break off the first compound in order to leave the tail end of hydrocarbon open for further extension. Do something thermally along with precipitates in this repeating cycle of polymer building type reactions, and eventual separation stages of water or oil soluable compounds perhaps?

Meh... Maybe I don't know enough about chemistry though. But something like that sounds good on the surface at least.

originally posted by: StargateSG7
Now the USA can FINALLY get out of the
Middle East and leave them to their own devices!

Not sure if it's been pointed out, but it seems like the defense industry is just to big to watch themselves be effectively put out of business.

originally posted by: pauljs75
a reply to: StargateSG7

Why not both?

An iron oxide compound and a bicarbonate? Perhaps a looping cycle that swaps back and forth between iron oxide and iron bicarbonate, and sodium hydroxide and sodium bicarbonate? (Also exchanging hydrogen in places here and there from the water or other chemistry.) There's probably something else going on there with solar heating as well to help drive one of the reactions. So you're using one reaction to pull a bio-lipid apart and stick it on a hydrocarbon chain, and then another to break off the first compound in order to leave the tail end of hydrocarbon open for further extension. Do something thermally along with precipitates in this repeating cycle of polymer building type reactions, and eventual separation stages of water or oil soluable compounds perhaps?

Meh... Maybe I don't know enough about chemistry though. But something like that sounds good on the surface at least.

I think you're on to something!

In fact, if we take GMO BACTERIA OUT OF THE PICTURE, a purely
mechanical/chemical-based system catalyzed by solar mirror-initiated
pyrolysis amd hydrocarbon repolymerization would ACTUALLY WORK !!!!!

WHOAAAA !!!!! I'm gonna run this by one of our engineers
and see what he has to say as to whether solar mirrors, salt water
and iron bicarbonate/sodium hydroxide/sodium bicarbonate
reactants COULD make short chain and long chain hydrocarbons
at a NET energy profit. I think the solar mirror array is the key
here. If a fully automated mirror array with automatic sun-direction
finding software for the mirrors and any high-temperature focusing
optics is implemented, I think your idea MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK!

Solar cells power the large-scale flexible concave-shape
solar mirrors to collect and concentrate the sun at specified
focus points in a water collection system. The heat of the
collected solar rays could act upon a capilliary-pump-based
piping network that would drive a seawater ingestion system
which gets super-heated and/or flash-steamed and metal
catalysts introduced to break out the H2, O2 and Sodium/Chlorine
that would be produced. I SUSPECT we could get Sodium Hydroxide
and Sodium Bicarbonate and excess H2/O2 which could use ANOTHER
catalyst to reform the components into short chain hydrocarbon and
longer chains depending upon the chemistry introduced.

And since we are introducing HEAT via solar inputs already,
THAT can form part of a petroleum products polymerization
and/or cracking tower process! The Iron Oxide or Iron carbonates
could be the 3rd chemical reaction to final get a decent polymerization
chemistry in place at a LARGE SCALE WITHOUT USING ANY GMO BACTERIA !!!!!!!

Well Well Well --- Looks Like ATS Members have invented something NEW!

I'll ask on Monday what the issues could be....Can't hurt to ask some real engineers!

a reply to: StargateSG7

Please keep us updated to what your engineer says. I am very interested in that too.

Excellent news! Anything that destroys Medieval regimes like SArabia, who are funding the Islamic invasion of Europe, mosque building in Europe, Middle Eastern wars and international terror, is a good thing.

a reply to: TechniXcality

You want nukes move to Fukushima!

Nukes are the nastiest way to get power, with pollutants with thousands of years of half lifes they can not honestly be considered clean energy.

No nukes!

a reply to: StargateSG7

I am a real engineer. This process, as described, makes no sense. It is not even a good scam so I think it is just a joke.

originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: StargateSG7

I am a real engineer. This process, as described, makes no sense. It is not even a good scam so I think it is just a joke.

Then as a scientist, please refute with detailed chemistry issues..ergo
gimme the chemical reactions that would occur during polymerization
with heat, catalysts such as Ferric Oxide, Sodium BiCarbonate,
Sodium Hydroxide, and the Chlorates, Chlorides and Chlorine gasses
that are produced/consumed, and also detail the approximate
caloric consumption/production of the chemical processes involved.

We need to know if there is NET USABLE energy from the
combined solar array inputs, seawater pyrolysis, capilliary-based
piping seawater ingestion pumps, and other material inputs/outputs.

AS I BELIEVE IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, I would rather have
evidence of Experimental Disproof rather than conjectural disproof.

On a technical basis, if the engineers (i.e. real phsyicists, a nuclear and
organic chemist, mechanical systems and process engineers and MSCEE's)
think there might be something to this, we can always run a very basic
computer simulation to see if there is a NET caloric output.
.
2nd Law of Thermodynamics indicates to me a slight NET output
as the PROBABLE outcome (i.e. as inputs from the sun via solar mirror array)
in order to produce short-chain and long-chain hydrocarbons. There is a LOT
of energy in a beam of light and conversion of that light into heat for
pyrolysis and chemical catalytic conversions seems POSSIBLE but the
key factor is.....WILL THE COST OF BUILDING, ALL MATERIAL INPUTS
AND PERSONNEL MAKE IT FINANCIALLY WORTHWHILE?
.
I have NO CLUE...but I WILL try to find out!
.
I personally DO NOT have the chemistry expertise
nor the engineering expertise to make ANY definitive
statement BUT I do know people who AS A TEAM CAN
make that determination!
.
NO PROMISES AS TO OUTCOME but we'll see sometime next week!