Albert Pike on Adonai and Lucifer

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Azzezza
a reply to: cooperton

Actually, enlightened Gnostics see Yahweh the Demiurge as kind of an evil idiot who orders genocide,commits infanticide and isn't worthy of worship. They believe in a much higher unknowable God, Yahweh is the Demiurge meaning creator of the imperfect world that no true God would have made. You need to read your Nag Hammadi scriptures. Sorry, your wrong about the views of Gnostics.

Someone already informed you that this demiurge was not called Yahweh, but was Yaldaboath, among other names. None of the Gnostic authors would dare insult Yahweh:

"Yahweh is righteous" - Apocryphon of John.

originally posted by: Saurus

Trying?

God has never struck me as an entity that tries to do something.

If God wants to do something, God does it!

Try was not the best word (I posted in a rush). God's discipline is purposed to orient your free will towards him. Of course he could effortlessly do anything. Heavenly bliss is much more appreciated by those who have undertaken the darkness of this world. If you were to be placed in paradise by God, without experiencing the development process of your soul, You'd probably make a terrible mistake with your free will - i.e. Adam and Eve.

This is from the Apocryphon of John. Yaldaboath said to the authorities with him. "Come, let's create a human being after the image of God and with our likeness to ourselves, so that this human image may give us light."

Yaldaboath is the Demiurge, the biblical creator of Adam.

Actually, it goes on to say:
The first ruler defiled Eve and produced in her two sons, a first and a second: Elohim and Yahweh.

Elohim has the face of a bear,
Yahweh the face of a cat.
One is just, the other is unjust.

Elohim is the just one and Yahweh the unjust. So Yahweh is LESS than the Demiurge and UNJUST.

I don't know where that quote about Yahweh is righteous was from, but not the Apocryphon of John.

a reply to: cooperton

If none of the Gnostic authors would dare insult Yahweh, as you claim, then why is that quote you provided not in the long or short version of A of J and why does it say he is unjust?

I would consider unjust an insult.

In fact, that is all it says about Yahweh.

Me thinks you told a fib, or are mistaken. The Gnostics rejected Yahweh entirely and had NO desire to honor or worship him.

a reply to: DoctorPoptart

You are arrogant for someone who's argument is flawed.

Ahriman, the later name of Angra Mainyu is an opponent of Ahura Mazda.

Satan, in the book of Job, is an emissary of Yahweh. At this point in Judaism, Yahweh is still a Son of El.

There is no dualism in Old Testament Judaism. Good and Evil come from Yahweh, he admits this several times.

Zoroastrianism surely influenced Judaism and Christianity. But Satan in Christianity and Ha Satan of Judaism are night and day.

The Christian Satan is a knock off of Ahriman.

The Jewish Ha Satan is an emissary of Yahweh.

But trying to make them the same entity is a fruitless endeavor. And syncretic fallacy.

originally posted by: Jonbet
a reply to: cooperton

If none of the Gnostic authors would dare insult Yahweh, as you claim, then why is that quote you provided not in the long or short version of A of J and why does it say he is unjust?

I would consider unjust an insult.

In fact, that is all it says about Yahweh.

Me thinks you told a fib, or are mistaken. The Gnostics rejected Yahweh entirely and had NO desire to honor or worship him.

Yaldaboath is the Demiurge, the biblical creator of Adam.

Actually, it goes on to say:
The first ruler defiled Eve and produced in her two sons, a first and a second: Elohim and Yahweh.

Elohim has the face of a bear,
Yahweh the face of a cat.
One is just, the other is unjust.

The Secret Book of John (Apocryphon of John)

"Yaldabaoth raped Eve.
She bore two sons.

Elohim was the name of the first.
Yahweh was the name of the second.
Elohim has a bear’s face.
Yahweh has a cat’s face.
One is righteous;
One is not.
Yahweh is righteous;
Elohim is not."

You got them mixed up. Yahweh is righteous, according to apocryphon of John.
Notice how when Elohim in the Old Testament creates Adam (androgyne) that it is made in their image? It is plural. Just food for thought

a reply to: cooperton

I own the Book. YOU got it messed up. Look at the order of the naming and subsequent designation of Just and Unjust

If you use common sense, you would not be saying that.

a reply to: cooperton

You added the

Yahweh is righteous
Elohim is not

That is not in the book and is the reverse of what it says you are playing fast and loose like you did with that non existent quote you supplied

a reply to: cooperton

Elohim is named first
Just is used first

Why would you reverse it like that? Just blatantly dishonest. Admit you were wrong and be done with it

a reply to: cooperton

And coordinating with the bible is useless because if you read a little further Yahweh and Elohim are said to be Cain and Abel.

So the Bible is completely irrelevant here.

originally posted by: Jonbet
a reply to: cooperton

Elohim is named first
Just is used first

Why would you reverse it like that? Just blatantly dishonest. Admit you were wrong and be done with it

Interesting regarding the mixing of the order. But, There's two options. Your memory is incorrect, or the link from which I was reading mixed them up. From this link:

Gnostic Archive

It says:

"Elohim was the name of the first.
Yahweh was the name of the second.
Elohim has a bear’s face.
Yahweh has a cat’s face.
One is righteous;
One is not.
Yahweh is righteous;
Elohim is not."

Double check your book. Stop accusing me of being purposefully misleading.

a reply to: cooperton

I will help you both out here. The section where it says Yahweh is righteous Elohim is not is an editor addition and an incorrect one, as the Book does not have it and it shows in parentheses on the website that I read it on. Parentheses means it was added and doesn't appear in the original texts. I also have the book but I read it online so it stays new.

So the editor just guessed and got the order wrong. Probably on purpose. Gnostics since the Ophites have hated Yahweh.

But it also says they are Cain and Abel so it isn't the biblical Yahweh at all. That would be Yaldaboath himself, like it or not, he corresponds to the evil old testament God.

Gnostics were funny with names. You have a Pharisee named Ahriman, an angel named Gamaliel, Samael is another name for the Demiurge as is Saklas. But personlity wise Yaldaboath matches Yahweh.

But the Gnostics rejected the Old Testament because of the obvious evil god that is portrayed throughout. The first Gnostics to reject Yahweh were the Ophites, in favor of the serpent.

Yahweh in the Apocryphon is not Yahweh in the New Testament. He would be Yaldaboath, the creator who said let's create... call him any name you want but it is his role that reveals his identity.

originally posted by: AngraMainyu
a reply to: cooperton

I will help you both out here. The section where it says Yahweh is righteous Elohim is not is an editor addition and an incorrect one, as the Book does not have it and it shows in parentheses on the website that I read it on. Parentheses means it was added and doesn't appear in the original texts. I also have the book but I read it online so it stays new.

So the editor just guessed and got the order wrong. Probably on purpose. Gnostics since the Ophites have hated Yahweh.

But it also says they are Cain and Abel so it isn't the biblical Yahweh at all. That would be Yaldaboath himself, like it or not, he corresponds to the evil old testament God.

Gnostics were funny with names. You have a Pharisee named Ahriman, an angel named Gamaliel, Samael is another name for the Demiurge as is Saklas. But personlity wise Yaldaboath matches Yahweh.

But the Gnostics rejected the Old Testament because of the obvious evil god that is portrayed throughout. The first Gnostics to reject Yahweh were the Ophites, in favor of the serpent.

Yahweh in the Apocryphon is not Yahweh in the New Testament. He would be Yaldaboath, the creator who said let's create... call him any name you want but it is his role that reveals his identity.

Interesting input. Let me pose a question. When have you been most hurt? Was it not by the painful edge of love? We experience the most intense emotional trauma by the backlash of failed love. Discipline should not be viewed as evil, but it has been categorized as such. The book of Job sums it up very well - you simply cannot fathom the intricate workings of our Loving Father.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: AngraMainyu
a reply to: cooperton

I will help you both out here. The section where it says Yahweh is righteous Elohim is not is an editor addition and an incorrect one, as the Book does not have it and it shows in parentheses on the website that I read it on. Parentheses means it was added and doesn't appear in the original texts. I also have the book but I read it online so it stays new.

So the editor just guessed and got the order wrong. Probably on purpose. Gnostics since the Ophites have hated Yahweh.

But it also says they are Cain and Abel so it isn't the biblical Yahweh at all. That would be Yaldaboath himself, like it or not, he corresponds to the evil old testament God.

Gnostics were funny with names. You have a Pharisee named Ahriman, an angel named Gamaliel, Samael is another name for the Demiurge as is Saklas. But personlity wise Yaldaboath matches Yahweh.

But the Gnostics rejected the Old Testament because of the obvious evil god that is portrayed throughout. The first Gnostics to reject Yahweh were the Ophites, in favor of the serpent.

Yahweh in the Apocryphon is not Yahweh in the New Testament. He would be Yaldaboath, the creator who said let's create... call him any name you want but it is his role that reveals his identity.

Interesting input. Let me pose a question. When have you been most hurt? Was it not by the painful edge of love? We experience the most intense emotional trauma by the backlash of failed love. Discipline should not be viewed as evil, but it has been categorized as such. The book of Job sums it up very well - you simply cannot fathom the intricate workings of our Loving Father.

Some loving father. Is this the same loving father that forgave David for a grievous sin but had Moses tell the community to stone a man for gathering wood on the Sabbath.

The same loving father that kills Egyptian children en masse and inflicts plagues on a Pharoah who had relented after hardening his heart so he could keep terrorizing the Egyptians.

The same loving father that allows the torture of his most faithful servant Job and repeatedly torments and kills his Israelites for minor offenses?

a reply to: cooperton

Genocide is not discipline. You don't get the Gnostic scriptures and certainly don't understand the God of their writings because he is unknowable.

Yahweh or Yaltabaoth is not God or benevolent. He is chief Archon. Son of Sophia and a cosmic accident.

The New Testament calls the god of the Israelites the devil, a murderer and a liar. You just don't see through the veil.