Does my boiler defy the laws of physics?

a reply to: nonspecific

In that case, it sounds truly bizarre. Besides, I'm sure it's a safe assumption you've moved it/them around to different positions and still didn't find the "hot zone" in the wrong spot. As far is it sounding bizarre, my house sat unoccupied for 2½ years before I bought it and had a lot of really weird problems - some of which ended up having really strange solutions which didn't seem like they should have worked.

The only "troubleshooting" step I can think of (if it hasn't been tried), would be to shut off the cold water valve into the sink and see if the results are the same. If the temp comes up, maybe it is the mixer tap valves - all of them - if they were purchased together and are the same, it wouldn't be the most shocking thing for a bad batch to fail together.

I'll be following, I hope there ends up being a solution, and I hope it's something weird, interesting, and inexpensive!

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

This actually came to mind after reading the verifications of the temperatures, etc. Since the Heating Engineer isn't a Plumber, maybe he's not familiar enough to detect an odd piping setup. What kind of faucet is it? Separate handles/valves for hot and cold, or one of those where you aim it one way for full hot, the other way for full cold, and in the middle for warm? It's it's one of those, the inner workings of the valve could be off-kilter.

A lot of heating engineers are also plumbers just with gas safe qualifications and therefore more expensive.

The tap is a mixer tap but there is a similar problem on the upstairs as well so seems unkilely that 3 mixer taps(all about 2 years old and good quality would go at the same time.

Like I mentioned in my post above, turn off the cold tap at each faucet using the shutoff valve where the pipe exits the wall. One of the valves could be bad and back-feeding into the hot line, are they all off by the same amount of heat? If not the one that is coldest is probably at fault.

So no matter how long you let the hot water run it has that same drop in temp? If so and your temp reading are accurate, cold water is being introduced into the hot supply to your faucet(s).

Cans you physically see the entire run from boiler to faucet?

originally posted by: evc1shop
What kind of tap are you measuring the water from? Is it a standard single Hot and single Cold tap at a sink or is it one of the fancy taps, single handle push left/right for hot & cold and up/down for flow volume?

If it is one of the fancy one, I could venture a guess that the mixing ball (valve) or a seal has failed and cold is leaking in to the hot.

To verify, turn off the Cold Shutoff Valve if you have one under the sink where the pipe exits the wall. Turn on your hot and test temperature after running it for 30-40 seconds.

Do you have other taps that output the correct temperature?
Other than that, I am stumped.

ETA: I see DogStar has asked the same.

LOL...and I see you suggested the same I just did before I did. Ahhh, fast moving threads!

Troubleshooting is fun, I guess that's why I bought a broken forclosure house, so I could fix everything for years LOL. This is making me want to get in the basement today and go looking for trouble.

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

I was thinking the same thing. This is one possibility. The other is that there is a manufacture defect in the water heater that allows the cold water intake to exit into the hot water output line instead of being directed to the bottom of the water heater.

Does your tub/shower tap do the same thing? If it is a mixer valve style, it could also be at fault.
Checking it is harder because there may not be an accessible shutoff.

originally posted by: dogstar23

originally posted by: evc1shop
What kind of tap are you measuring the water from? Is it a standard single Hot and single Cold tap at a sink or is it one of the fancy taps, single handle push left/right for hot & cold and up/down for flow volume?

If it is one of the fancy one, I could venture a guess that the mixing ball (valve) or a seal has failed and cold is leaking in to the hot.

To verify, turn off the Cold Shutoff Valve if you have one under the sink where the pipe exits the wall. Turn on your hot and test temperature after running it for 30-40 seconds.

Do you have other taps that output the correct temperature?
Other than that, I am stumped.

ETA: I see DogStar has asked the same.

LOL...and I see you suggested the same I just did before I did.

Ahhh, fast moving threads!

Troubleshooting is fun, I guess that's why I bought a broken forclosure house, so I could fix everything for years LOL. This is making me want to get in the basement today and go looking for trouble.

Wait, you go looking for trouble? I find that usually it is way ahead of me and just waiting to appear as I, too, have done my fair share of handyman work on old houses that I own.

a reply to: nonspecific

Sounds more like your pipes are defying the laws of physics than the boiler

You're just gonna have to rip your walls down or tear your floors apart depending on the route your pipes take and see if there's any portals open to any ice world dimension around the pipes causing the loss in temperature.

The only thing I can think of is that somehow your cold water line is mixing in with the hot.
Not sure how that would happen though.

originally posted by: evc1shop

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

This actually came to mind after reading the verifications of the temperatures, etc. Since the Heating Engineer isn't a Plumber, maybe he's not familiar enough to detect an odd piping setup. What kind of faucet is it? Separate handles/valves for hot and cold, or one of those where you aim it one way for full hot, the other way for full cold, and in the middle for warm? It's it's one of those, the inner workings of the valve could be off-kilter.

A lot of heating engineers are also plumbers just with gas safe qualifications and therefore more expensive.

The tap is a mixer tap but there is a similar problem on the upstairs as well so seems unkilely that 3 mixer taps(all about 2 years old and good quality would go at the same time.

Like I mentioned in my post above, turn off the cold tap at each faucet using the shutoff valve where the pipe exits the wall. One of the valves could be bad and back-feeding into the hot line, are they all off by the same amount of heat? If not the one that is coldest is probably at fault.

That is a possibility but they are not on one loop, the kitchen sink is on one, and the bath/shower taps, bathroom sink and shower room shower are on a seperate feed yet they both have substansial drops in temperature.

I would try using an EMF detector or K2 meter near that spot and see if you get any spikes or high readings..

If you do, then maybe there really is something strange happening there.

Are these all internal wall pipes? If not, you could have the hot water pipes against an external wall, which is bleeding the heat from them over the length.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: evc1shop

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: nonspecific

22 deg Celsius is about 72 deg Fahrenheit (not that the conversion helps you, but figured I'd throw it out there for my fellow Fahrenheitians who will read this.)

IMO, 99.9999% of the possibilities are represented by the following two:

1) There's a faulty thermometer measuring either the boiler or the water from the tap

2) "Spooky Action at a Distance" - There's a spot in the pipe which is quantum entangled with something REALLY COLD.

If it's #2, that doesn't really defy the laws of physics, but I'd love to get my beer cooler entangled with that same spot!

I meant to do the conversion, thanks for that

As I said 2 different heating guys and they both say that according to there thermometers are reading the correct temp as the water leaves the boiler, the water is at the correct temp on the way out. 6 feet later however it is 22 degrees down...

Is there a possibility that for some odd reason the cold water supply is getting into the hot water pipes? Look I have seen some crazy half ass jobs done on plumbing, so I would check that before considering perhaps the paranormal or physics behaving improperly.

This actually came to mind after reading the verifications of the temperatures, etc. Since the Heating Engineer isn't a Plumber, maybe he's not familiar enough to detect an odd piping setup. What kind of faucet is it? Separate handles/valves for hot and cold, or one of those where you aim it one way for full hot, the other way for full cold, and in the middle for warm? It's it's one of those, the inner workings of the valve could be off-kilter.

A lot of heating engineers are also plumbers just with gas safe qualifications and therefore more expensive.

The tap is a mixer tap but there is a similar problem on the upstairs as well so seems unkilely that 3 mixer taps(all about 2 years old and good quality would go at the same time.

Like I mentioned in my post above, turn off the cold tap at each faucet using the shutoff valve where the pipe exits the wall. One of the valves could be bad and back-feeding into the hot line, are they all off by the same amount of heat? If not the one that is coldest is probably at fault.

That is a possibility but they are not on one loop, the kitchen sink is on one, and the bath/shower taps, bathroom sink and shower room shower are on a seperate feed yet they both have substansial drops in temperature.

Even if you have a multiport manifold feeding each fixture separately, you can still get cold in each line. The only way they wouldn't is if there was a manifold in place with backflow preventer valves but nobody does that in a home setup. The only place you may see a backflow preventer is on a feed to a home heating boiler that I know of for residential installs.

a reply to: nonspecific

in the states, plumbers do gas lines. if its a pipe, a plumber fixes it.

I agree with the prior poster: if you were billed, demand service. Since he is a specialist, he needs to come up with an answer.

Trust me: press him hard enough, he'll make one up anyway. LOL

Hi...just want to verify. This is a hotwater heater for your taps only and not a boiler that also provides heat for the house ? If it is a boiler that also provides heat for the house there is generally a mixing valve that adds cold water to the hot water in order to keep it at a reasonable temp. If so the mixing valve may be malfunctioning. Just a thought. Pictures of the system would help in diagnosing the problem.

originally posted by: Krakatoa
Are these all internal wall pipes? If not, you could have the hot water pipes against an external wall, which is bleeding the heat from them over the length.

Mixture of the 2 but a good thought, modern house though and the walls do not feel overly cold.

a reply to: nonspecific

Copper is an excellent thermal conductor and the best heatsinks used for PC cooling are made from copper, or at least use copper contacts. Modern desktop CPU's will quickly overheat and shut down to prevent heat damage to the PC (they can get hot enough to melt the board, without a built-in safety shut-off) but as soon as you drop a good heatsink and fan on them, they run cool and quiet and that same CPU won't get much above room temperature.

The water coming out of the boiler is probably close to 100 degrees celcius right? After going through 6 feet of copper pipe in a 12 degree celcius room, losing 22 degrees sounds right. That 6 feet of copper pipe is a giant heatsink sapping heat away from your water. When you run hot water try holding your hand near the copper pipe - it's probably throwing off a lot of heat, and that's thermal energy being taken from your water.

Try insulating it. You can probably get pipe insulation at a hardware store, I imagine it's used for mobile homes a lot. I bet the water at your tap will be hotter after you wrap that pipe in some insulation.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: nonspecific


Ya'll call them "Heating engineers" across the pond?


We call them plumbers! Anyhow, if he was there and you paid him, make him come back and really fix it!

Reminds me when I got out of the military and could only find a job pumping gas, when anyone asked me what I did for a living, I told them I was a "petroleum engineer"!

A qualified Plumber can install bathrooms, sinks and toilets etc, here in the U.K

Heating engineers deal with gas and boilers and have to be Gas Safe registered.

Nonspecific, I do not have a clue why the temperature is dropping the way it is and if he used an analyser which did not detect a problem, has it been calibrated recently? If it hasn't the analyser could be faulty.

I work in construction training and I will ask a Gas assessor I know, if he has any idea.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: nonspecific

in the states, plumbers do gas lines. if its a pipe, a plumber fixes it.

I agree with the prior poster: if you were billed, demand service. Since he is a specialist, he needs to come up with an answer.

Trust me: press him hard enough, he'll make one up anyway. LOL

I saw him service the boiler and he showed me as he did readings at both ends, it is a rented property so I am not paying and he knows my landlord so is not screwing about. The boiler is working as it should but somehow the water is loosing more heat than it should over that kind of distance.

a reply to: nonspecific

The don't have to fell cold to the touch. It will act like a heat sink. If the wall is a lower temp than the pipe, the heat will bleed off into the wall and be dispersed.